Hello everyone and Steinberg,
I recently work on a 7.1 project and found the channel ordering is confusing me.
When I move the VST MultiPanner ball straight backwards along the Y-axis:
At F9 (roughly –9 dB back from centre)
The sound and meters indicate rear channels (Sl/Sr), even though the ball is still inside the front-side sector.
Continuing to R21 (further back)
The sound and meters flip to side channels (Ls/Rs).
So the audible position does not follow the on-screen position consistently:
Even if I switch the device port in control room setting, I could get a reasonable audible result but the meter still looks odd to me as the side channels are in channel 7+8 and rear channels are in 5+6. This also affects my output interleaved files. And I also wonder the down mix to stereo would be correct in this layout?
Please help!!
I’ve read that dizzying thread 3 times now. Is there a consensus on the best practice of re-assigning the outputs? 1. Physically swap cables. 2. Mixer Delay plugin. 3. Control Room. 4. Swap surrounds vst plugin that Mathis created. 5. ?
I sent an .adm file of a test file to my friend who used Logic/Nuendo & he said the speakers were in the incorrect order. But I am not sure if it was his system or mine. My understanding is that once you swap those channels, the renderer does all the work of correctly routing these channels. So my friend should theoretically hear the correct channel order no?
As far as I know, Steinberg’s 7.1ch assignment conforms to Microsoft’s specifications, which differ from the ITU and SMPTE standards that many of us use as a default.
However, as long as you are working with interleaved files, the metadata seems to be compatible, and I have never personally experienced any issues when opening them in other applications.
The confusion seems to arise when exporting to mono files, as the channel order and naming conventions are different.
I don’t know why Nuendo can’t adopt SMPTE standard and we won’t have all these confusing things.
Has anyone ever found Nuendo’s panning behavior in 7.1 format to be strange?
Isn’t it illogical that in 7.1 format we have to manually swap the monitoring output order or use a plugin like mix delay to change the order in Nuendo?
When checking the level meters, having the side surrounds show up on the last two channels while the rear surrounds are on channels 5 and 6 just feels off.
And the fact that we can’t simply downmix to stereo without first reordering to SMPTE is unnecessarily complicated. Also, when delivering interleaved files, the channel layout differs from the familiar SMPTE standard, which can easily lead to playback errors or make others question the file’s accuracy.
Well I wrote here because I sent a test adm file to a friend that uses Logic & Nuendo and he told me the surround channels orders were swapped. I would have to go over there and make sure it wasn’t something on his end. I really wish everyone would get on the same page on this.
…i’m running into those issues as well. they’ve been mentioned for years now - any feedback from steinberg about this? somehow unbelievable that a platform built for atmos doesn’t adress this!…
Problem is the platform is built for the Microsoft/SMPTE standard. Probably too late to un-bake this cake. You can find the “latest feedback” from SB in the user manual for Nuendo 14:
In Nuendo, the order of surround channels and side channels follows the specification of Microsoft Inc. To meet the Dolby requirements for side surround channels and surround rear channels, swap the device ports of the surround channels and the side channels.
it feels so weird to pan a source to the side, and to see the level going up in the rears, straight in the channel’s meters…
but this is really bad: since it is not possible to reroute anything when using the internal renderer, there is no way to correct this when exporting an ADM file. in other words, the internal ADM generation is effectively broken and unusable — unless i am missing something? if true, a real shame.
of course, it is still possible to reorder the channels using a plugin such as mixerdelay, but this happens post-renderer and therefore has no effect on an ADM export, as far as i understand.
only solution: getting the external dolby-renderer?
Would you mind posting a deailed description of your setup and how you are monitoring and checking your final mixes. Screenshots of your CR setup would be great as well. Seems like a lot of us are confused by the current state of affairs.
Here is a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos test file I recorded in from Apple Music and made into an ADM. This link will be active for 60 days.
Import this into your session if you’d like and make sure your routing is correct. Also play it back in the Dolby Atmos Renderer and it should be correct.
I have no issues doing this.
I have played back the same file in different Dolby Atmos studios in Toronto including Company 3’s big room where they mix Netflix’s Wednesday, and Apple’s Silo and Foundation and all the routing is correct. My mixes in that room also have the correct routing.
I have to correct you here. Microsoft standard is on its own..hmm with Steinberg.
SMPTE/ITU/EBU standards, whilst acknowledging past orders, now specify the order we should be on as LRCLFELssRssLrsRrs. Dolby was different to this standard ions ago but they have been on the SMPTE standard for quite a while now.
Does it matter? The point Wheels is trying to make it seems is no. I say yes it does. Try exporting a 7.1 stem. You’ll find the order the old MS standard. Yes there is meta data in the interleaved file that should clarify but this is rarely making a difference in my workflow. For example Davinci Resolve and Premiere both import it in the physical order of the file, and most video editors have their speakers in SMPTE order. Wheels do you export 7.1 (or greater) stems for post much? Not including Dolby ADM.
I was quoting the Steinberg manual. Personally, I have no idea why anyone would believe the folks who created the Windows95 GUI would have any sort of authority on channel order for surround speaker configuration.
The thing is that when you import such a multichannel file into another DAW, it assignes the channels to the correct channels.
If I am not mistaking, ProTools, Reaper & Adobe support that.
And of course Nuendo/Cubase.
You’re defending an antiquated workflow which Dolby Atmos has long since rendered irrelevant. AFAIK, nobody is asking for the 7.1 deliverables you mention. It’s either 5.1 or Atmos. I would be curious who or what modern workflow benefits from keeping the status quo. Please explain.
