Thank you so much, Daniel, I really appreciate this!!
I apologize for being so slow on the uptake here, but here’s something I still don’t understand. I started with a new project, removed all the project appearance chord symbols overrides, and reset to factory. Now, here’s what seventh chords look with ‘vertical position of interval’ set to baseline:
That makes perfect sense. Everything looks uniform.
So then, when I change ‘vertical position’ to superscript, it looks like this:
The 7s and 9s are now superscript, as expected, except in ma7 chords, which looks awfully inconsistent. I can move the entire ‘maj7’ component to superscript, but that again looks inconsistent with mi7. I’d like to have the letters (maj) on the baseline, and the number superscript, like the other seventh chord qualities. What am I missing here?
Thank you, Maarten, but that’s still not quite it; the subscript font is smaller than the baseline font, so maj7 and mi7 still look different on my score…
Of course the m for minor refers to the chord while the maj refers to the 7th, so if those two looked different, there might be good reason.
Excellent use of snark there, Derrek, but I think a different argument can be made by the same logic; a major seventh chord has a major seventh, and a minor seventh chord has a minor seventh - so why does the ‘ma’ in a major seventh chord symbol refer to the seventh, while the ‘mi’ in a minor seventh chord symbol refers to the underlying triad? It’s inconsistent, and to me it looks aesthetically crappy to have one upstairs and one downstairs.
Is this what you’re going for?
If so, Dorico is missing the setting to do that with the maj suffix. It seems like this is a setting that should be implemented. It’s a pretty quick fix though.
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Leave this setting on Baseline, not Superscript.
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EO / Chord Symbols / Project Default Appearances / Edit enter
Cmaj7 -
Click the 7 so it appears in blue below, then click the Edit Component pencil
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In this next Edit Chord Symbol Component window you can make a global adjustment to the 7. Don’t make adjustments in the previous window or it won’t be global. Change the scaling factor (values must match) and give it a Y offset. Hit OK.
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Check the appearance now in the Project Default Chord Symbol Appearances window. If it’s not correct, don’t make edits there, but hit the Edit Component pencil to go back into that editor. There will be a bit of trial and error with this depending on your font and size.
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Once you find values you like, repeat for the
9inCmaj9.
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Completely agree, @Christian_Klikovits
- maj7: major triad + M7
- (dom)7: major triad + m7
- min7: minor triad + m7
Thank you, Fred, much appreciated!
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Not quite. I was perfectly serious. A C chord is major, the interpretation of an added 7 is for a dominant 7th. Thus the 7th being major is the exception to expectation.
On the other hand, a Cm chord is minor by itself, and the minor 7th added to that is the expected configuration.
As far as how you configure your own music, suit yourself.
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Plus, a Cm7 chord is still the dominant chord in F (natural) minor
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While I’m not entirely sure a theoretical discussion is helpful in the context of this thread and its OP, since several arguments have been advanced suggesting it bears on the notation of 7 and 9 chord symbols, I’ll continue it.
@Derrek, your use of the phrase “expected configuration” isn’t helpful for being imprecise in its assumptions. What is the framework within which expectations are established?
If the music with chord symbols is primarily triadic, then there might be “expectations” regarding seventh qualities. If, however, it’s consistently the kind of harmonic practice one finds in jazz, for example, the “expected” is very different.
@DanielMuzMurray, this isn’t helpful vis-à-vis chord symbols for performance. Such symbols serve, like figures in a baroque keyboard part, to communicate as efficiently as possible information the player needs:
- root
- chord quality
- (upper extensions)
- (alterations)
What they do not communicate are tonal-contextual information, as that isn’t needed for performance. So the kind of V7 / v7 distinction you bring up, while important in analysis (and accompanied by important interpretive questions such as “is that ‘dominant’ actually a dominant?”), won’t be helpful in regards to any question about notating chord symbols.
A “dominant seventh chord” means — again, when writing chord symbols for players to realize in performance — major triad + m7. “Minor seventh chord” means minor triad + m7, etc. Trying to subtly show anything more nuanced by using superscript 7s for “these types” and baseline 7s for “those” is the road to performative madness.
None of this is to say, of course, that performers don’t have more nuanced understanding of such tonal context — all those secondary/applied “V7” chords in a tune like “Giant Steps” as just one example — but that the pattern recognition and analysis (“its moving through a major-third matrix harmonically,” in that tune) is separate from having clear and visually consistent chord symbols.
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I was under the impression that jazz performers do not need to be told to add a major 7th to a major triad.
So far in this discussion I have been taken as sarcastic and told I am not being helpful. I do not think this promotes discussion here. It suggests that only certain folk’s opinions are welcome, which I am sure is not the case.
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It was clear to me, Derrek, what you meant by your initial comment and I agree that this is probably why Dorico doesn’t raise the 7 in maj7 as a superscript.
I can certainly make arguments for why some nomenclature systems are preferrable to others, but the fact is jazz musicians are used to seeing all sorts of systems and will adapt to whatever is put in front of us, as long as it is clear and visually consistent. Dorico is not being consistent here as there is a setting missing to superscript the 7 (or 6 or 9) in a major variant, so this should be added to the program.
I’ve sort of quit griping about other missing chord features as so many I’ve solved myself with doricolib files, but Dorico is missing 69 settings without the bar (it’s not a fraction), full modal name options, suffix accidental baseline settings, and settings for the slash bar font/size. I have doricolib files to fix all of those, but can’t fix the awful diagonal slash bar kerning so definitely would love to see that addressed in a future version too.
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Jazz players may add a major 7th if they think it will fit, but there are several other things that can be done with major chords, such as adding 6 and 9, so the maj7 tells them that they definitely should add the major 7th.
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@Derrek, I’m saddened that this thread has caused you hard feelings. I’ll leave it to any who perceived sarcasm to address that, should they wish, but I’d like the chance to respond to your comment:
I know you to be a very active, engaged, generous and helpful member of this forum. I believe that robust and even challenging discussion and debate among a group of musicians such as we comprise — who care as much as we all do about communicating our musical ideas well through notation — is a healthy thing. It keeps us “on our game.” Since everyone’s thoughts and opinions are indeed welcome here, it gives each of us the valuable opportunity to hear from others, question or own assumptions and practices/habits, and decide how to move forward.
I had hoped that it was clear that it was your comment — not you! — that I was responding to. I apologize for having apparently failed. Please know that I, for one, very much value your…well, valuable contributions here, and look forward as you keep ’ em coming!
Best regards,
Judd
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