A request for Lillie - a note about "Make into system" and "Make into page"

I’ve just had a read of the online manual; specifically the sections for “making frames from selections” (https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en/dorico/topics/engrave_mode/engrave_mode_frames_making_from_selection_t.html?hl=make%2Cframe) and “making systems from selections” (https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en/dorico/topics/engrave_mode/engrave_mode_systems_making_from_selection_t.html?hl=make%2Csystem)

A topic comes up here (and on the Facebook group) fairly frequently where a user uses “Make into System” on a selection, then uses “Make into Frame” on a selection that envelopes the original selection, doesn’t get the results they want, comes here and posts about it.

Here are four example threads from the last year:
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=142061&p=764169#p764072
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=134536
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=129920#p704125
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=121611
If you search the Facebook group for “make into system” there’s a post from Alan Belkin in January that has exactly the same problem. There are more examples but I think five hopefully illustrate the point.

What I’d really like is for there to be a “note” on each of the two “making … from selections” documentation sections, a) highlighting that “make into frame” and “make into system” should not be used on overlapping material, and b) linking to the relevant sections on system breaks and frame breaks. Then I’d like the sections on system breaks and frame breaks to be filled out so that they describe what the “wait for next” properties mean.

It may be that this is already on your radar; I just thought I’d put it all in one place in case it isn’t on the to-do list.

Many thanks

I don’t think the way to think about this is that you shouldn’t use Make Into System/Frame on overlapping material. Dorico tries to be intelligent about how to e.g. handle existing system breaks when you use Make Into Frame. It won’t stomp all over your existing system breaks, for example. But it is definitely important to understand what the ‘Wait for next system break’ and ‘Wait for next frame break’ properties do. For the ‘Wait for next system break’ property, the end of the flow is also a valid system break.

I would agree with the advice that you’ve given elsewhere, Leo, that often adjusting these properties on existing breaks is better than using the Make Into… commands. For example, if you’ve already got your page more or less formatted with breaks except for the last system or two, rather than grabbing a load of bars and trying to force them into the frame with Make Into Frame, it’s better to add a break at the very start of the frame, if one isn’t there already, and set it to ‘Wait for next frame break’, then simply add a frame break at the position where you want the next frame to begin. That will then respect the existing system breaks while also ensuring the right bar comes at the end of the frame.

Daniel

Very often, when I apply consecutive System Breaks, I’ll decide that actually, I want one bar ‘knocked over’ from one ‘Made’ system to another. (Possibly as a result of my Finale upbringing, where this can be done very easily.) Is there a way to do this? I tried moving the break, but couldn’t.
Or do I have to delete the break and re-apply it?

You can move system breaks in Write Mode with Alt+arrow keys.

You may find that moving breaks with Alt+arrow keys doesn’t always work reliably, and may in fact cause them to disappear: but this will be improved in the forthcoming update.

I NEVER tried to move a system or frame break in Write Mode before, because everything I do with breaks I do in Engrave Mode. Now that I tried it, they always disappear. Is there a reason to move them in Write Mode? A brilliant feature, when this will be possible soon! Thanks! I suppose, I will be able to move frame breaks as well?

My feeling, basically, is that some of this ^^^ needs to be in the manual. At the moment, the “System Breaks” section of the manual does not even mention the “wait for” properties. I’ve just searched the online manual for “wait for” (no quotes) and I get no results: https://steinberg.help/dorico/v1/en/search.html?searchQuery=wait+for

I note that André has just today asked John Barron to explain the “wait for” properties in the next Discover Dorico video (see the Facebook group) but I can’t help thinking that there has to be a segment of Dorico users that don’t use this forum, aren’t on Facebook and don’t watch the videos. On the other hand I guess they might have already printed and bound a copy of the first (730 page) version of the manual and assumed that it’s finished, in which case I should get back in my box :wink:

Dear Leo,
The last manual has 832 pages… and is still only about Dorico 1 ! I guess I will never ever print it… and I’m so happy I don’t have to study it from scratch ^^ We’re getting close to the possibility of answering RTHM (read the heavy/huge manual) in the next days !!!
In any case, I’m confident the subtleties of System/Frame breaks will be undisclosed soon, and it’s a good thing, since those casting off functions are a great asset in Dorico’s workflow.

I’m not quite sure yet how I feel about being called out by name in the title of this thread but I appreciate the directness at least - saves me digging around searching for “manual” “docs” etc!

I’ve had a chat with Daniel about this Leo, and I’m already drafting up some Hot Tips regarding breaks, the Wait for next properties, and additional information about behaviour when using Make into System/Frame options. Stand by.

Marc, I’m amazed that the manual’s grown by 100 pages in eight months, and I’m glad that I don’t have to read it from beginning to end and can just dip in when I’m stuck. I do wonder how much the page count actually matters, though. Now that we live in a world where the manual is either web-based with a search facility, or PDF-based with nice a hyperlinked index, what’s the difference in weight between 800 pages or 2000 pages? Depending on how you look at it, the answer’s either 40mb (that’s 40Mo if you’re French) or it’s a trick question - your iPad weighs exactly the same :wink:

Lillie, sorry to have called you out by name. I think those of us who frequent this board know that Daniel’s the Product Manager (or something similar that really doesn’t fairly reflect his importance), and he’s often summoned by name. Occasionally if another Steinberg staffer jumps on a topic then they will also be called out by name, though I think most of us are kind of hazy about who on the team does what. I think when you joined you were kind of announced as the documentation person, so I thought nothing of typing your name. I guess it kind of makes sense on the Facebook group, but less so here. In future I’ll go for “Documentation request” or something.

Thanks muchly (the whole team) for sticking it on the to-do list.

I don’t really mind Leo! Classic case of tone of voice not coming through online… I intended it to be read with a smirk and a raised eyebrow :wink:

Dammit Lillie. You win :smiley: