Adjusting a movt. title

What’s the best way to adjust this movement title? I tried moving it down in Engrave/Staff Spacing but it was very difficult: I had to select the 0mm. space at the top before I could even select the handle. I was then able to move the tacet movement down, but it keeps snapping back to where it was when I reload the file. Changing the flow heading top margin does nothing. I’m obviously missing something.

Movement title.png

Why is the top of your music frame overlapping the top text frame? That’s surely the cause of the problem.

Because it produces a good distance between the header and the music on all the other pages in the rest of the layouts. I can move the music frame down but that creates an orphan system on the next page. That shouldn’t be necessary, as there’s plenty of room between the word tacet and the title of the 3rd movement. I still can’t figure out why I can’t move the 2nd movement title down.

The solution, globally, would be to not overlap those frames, but rather to decrease the padding/margin at the top of the music frame (I believe this is in Layout Options > Page Setup).

Locally you could fix this by adjusting the top of the music frame on that one page. This will create a page override, of course.

Actually, I’m misunderstanding the question. I was looking at the gap between the Heading and the flow Title, not the gap between the flow Title and the Tacet.

What I’ve given you is a solution for bringing the Flow Title down, but that will also bring the Tacet down (the Tacet appears where the top stave would naturally appear, if there was music in that flow).

Changing the global setting would work better for the distance between the header and the flow title but how can I reduce the distance between the tacet and the 3rd mvt. title without moving all the 3rd mvt. staves up manually and then having unequal bottom margins?

You can adjust the Flow Heading margins by Inserting a Flow Heading Change, but that will affect all headings on that page. Does that help?

Thanks, Ben. That does reduce the distance between recit and mvt. title but why can’t I do this globally? In any case I still need a page override to put enough distance between the header and the 2nd mvt. title because changing this in Layout Options doesn’t affect it.

I guess I’m wondering why changing the flow heading top margin in Layout Options does nothing to move a flow heading at the top of a page. That rather cryptic message in Layout Options about its only taking effect if the ‘height of the flow margin is less than the default system-to-system gap, or if the frame is very full vertically’ doesn’t help much, either.

The Top margin is only used if the Heading is below some other element. Otherwise, the Heading goes at the top of the Music Frame.

What’s odd is that the text of Flow II seems to be sitting higher in the Flow Heading box (in fact pushing outside it) than the text of Flow II, which is entirely inside the box. Are you sure it doesn’t have an extra carriage return?

No. Leo had already seen that the frames are overlapping. I’d done this to improve the distance between music and header in the rest of the document, but I’ve since done this differently. I still have to have page overrides to get enough distance between the header and the movement titles, though.

If you want greater control of the gaps between flow headings and flows on this one page, you could design a custom master page and apply it only to this page. If you put two music frames on the master page, you can then use a frame break to make sure the third flow is pushed into the second frame on the page. Then obviously the two separate frames can be as close or far apart as you like, and you can additionally apply a flow heading change to that page (as you have already done) if you want to adjust the margins between the flow heading and the first system of the flow.

(You could of course do the first part as page overrides, but I tend to do this sort of thing as a master page as a) you can use it multiple times, and b) it provides a “base” that you can adjust locally in each layout, but if you need to reset page overrides at any point you can go back to the custom master page “base”, rather than having to start entirely again.)

It’s great that this is possible, but the trouble with a master page with multiple music frames is that it most likely could only be used at one spot in one layout, as movement breaks both between and within layouts probably won’t coincide and will require a page override anyway. Or am I misunderstanding this?

Possibly, it very much depends on the project as a whole, I merely wanted to provide another idea (using multiple frames to control the distances between flows on this page) in case that might help. For what it’s worth, I’ve found doing this quite helpful for a few projects, particularly before flow headings were added - it does sometimes involve making local adjustments (i.e. overrides) but can be very useful to use as a “base”, e.g. if most parts have a page where the second flow starts roughly 1/3 of the way down, you can get most of the way there with the master page, then tweak.

Could we get an additional “Ideal Gap” in the Layout Options to control the ideal space between a flows? It looks like Dorico is using some number for this ideal gap, but we can’t adjust it. Or the option could be grouped with the “Flow heading top/bottom margin” settings (which I currently have set to 8mm/12mm).

I have a similar problem to Vaughan, which is that when I set up my spacing to be basically correct for my music (6 space inter-system gap, justify distances 40% and 40%), pages with a flow break don’t look very good. You can see a couple in this screen shot. I can adjust it with staff spacing adjustments, but with 16 flows and 31 parts, that is a lot of manual adjustment to fix the same problem. (Yes, multiple frames would solve this, but that eliminates one of the huge benefits of Dorico’s magic flow heading system!) I can increase the inter-system gap to 10 spaces and then these pages look pretty good, but I thought the current advice was to make the inter-system gap as small as we could stand…

Or am I missing something?

The goal of the flow heading margins was to provide this gap, because the top margin will not be used if a flow heading falls at the top of a music frame.