First, you should definitely go somewhere and try the keyboards you’re interested in — or have them shipped to you (with a clear return policy if you don’t like it). Speaking personally, if I were an accomplished pianist and could afford a top notch keyboard, I would make the quality of the action the most critical criterion.
Second: it’s possible that the higher end Kawai “professional keyboards“ have both the VPC 1 action and the additional controllers you want. Nothing says you need to use the internal sounds they supply.
Finally, while the VPC1 does not have a mod wheel, a google search turns up some third party modulators that could be placed nearby, on top, etc. For example, the Yamaha MCS2 seems like it might fit the bill — and then some. I believe it’s been discontinued but they appear on the used market. There are other modwheel devices around as well.
I’ve been to Sweetwater and tried many/most of these out in person side-by-side. Bar none (country mile) the Kawai MP11-se or its midi-only equivalent are the best. It is so not close (imho) that it’s not even funny. The Kawai’s have as close to a real piano action as you’ll possibly find in a “keyboard” format, complete with long wooden shank keys. Thing weighs a ton, but it’s worth every penny, especially if you’re not moving it often. (The dynamic shifts quite a bit when you go to digital uprights)
All others have plastic/composite mechanisms, and are often relatively slight tweaks to very similar fatar keybeds. The arturia is heavy/slow to respond. (And most fake keybeds do not have good note repetition.) The nords are pretty nice, and on the lighter side, but even then you’re aware it’s a keyboard. The newer wooden Yamahas are nice too, but not as nice as the Kawais.
Ultimately, I was so frustrated by the whole experience that I left not purchasing anything, because I couldn’t afford the mp11se at the time, and couldn’t abide the feel of the others, especially in comparison to how superior the Kawai was. (To be clear: I’m speaking of their full, top end keybed, not any of the cut down versions in lesser models, or the non-88 equivalents; although to be fair, the mp7se was also very nice.). I was hopeful for the arturia since it strikes a great feature:price ratio, but just couldn’t bring myself to do it after I felt the Kawai.
FWIW: I’m primarily an organist (masters trained) but have played piano my whole life, including professionally.
I’ve not done much of that sort of work for a while (three years?). I do recall that I occasionally used to record with a low-latency VST, such as Pianoteq, and then swap it out for e.g. Ivory II. It may be that with my current (M4 Pro) Mac that wouldn’t be necessary - I’ve not checked.
I said that I didn’t need built in sound for many years too, but no worries.
About the mod wheel: I am not super thrilled with having one all the way to the left on an 88 key anyway. Just those extra inches seem really different.. I use an expression pedal a lot, also a smaller controller.
Thanks everyone, this discuss makes me doubtful… the term of masterkeyboard doesn’t seem to be relevant anymore. Times have changed since my Roland A-80, Yamaha KX-88, Kurzweil… either we have silent pianos that work without controllers with a MIDI output, or we have to choose low-end or high-end with sounds already integrated which starts to consume a lot of electricity for what I need to do. We’ll see
Not an option anymore, but I still swear by my Ensoniq KS-32 synth with weighted keys from the early 90’s (sadly, Ensoniq went bust in 1998). It shared a lot of features with the Fatar keyboards, and I’ve never found anything, other than a real piano (of course), that matched the feel and responsiveness of the KS-32. But it is also limited to 76 keys, so there’s that, and it’s not available. I’ve done a lot of my composing on a M-audio Keystation 88 that is not weighted, and that’s been fine. Not for a serious pianist, but it was something I could put into a rented VW Beetle when I was working in the Bay Area and would schlep that keyboard from my office to a hotel and back when I was out there often. That enabled me to get a lot of composition done, and it does have 88 keys. But the feel is so not like a real piano.
If that were critical for me today (I suck at the piano, TBH; only had one formal lesson other than failing in attempts to learn from my mother who used to perform with Toscanini and others in the 40’s), I would undoubtedly first look at a Fatar keyboard, based on how well the Ensoniq KS-32 still feels like the real deal to me.
In case you didn’t have a chance to read through that thread from last year I shared earlier, if you open up the hidden text inside the chevron of this port, toward the bottom you’ll find some articles that I found to be of good general help in shaping my decision about a purchase a few years ago:
If you describe how you would be using the keyboard, you might get other information (which might be either useful or make it more confusing! )
For example if you are composing, starting and stopping as playing, or extemporizing, improvising (into Dorico, or DAW), wanting to input into Dorico for orchestrations, or just piano pieces.
If I was wanting to play a fluent piano part into Dorico, continuo as I am playing it for example, I would use my electric piano, but for other parts (orchestral) I have a small keyboard with mod wheel, or I simply type it in from computer (Dorico). It depends what I am inputting at the time. I never miss the mod wheel on my electric piano, as usually I am in “piano” mode. Having a smaller keyboard for other instruments is useful and I can use it for a DAW and Dorico. It can sit on top of my electric piano if I need it to.
Just to add, if a sostenuto pedal is important, check if it is an option on the electric piano you are deciding on. (Oddly, my upright Yamaha has one, but its quite clunky, always such a joy when playing a Steinway or other grands.)
I’m a classical musician (ex RCM). For a serious pianist there’s really only one option, Kawai VPC (Virtual Piano Controller). It’s built for proper pianists and intended to feel like a grand piano. It doesn’t have any fancy dials or buttons (but there is a simple software editor for MIDI channels, pedals and the like). The whole point is that it plays like a real piano. If you need wheels and sliders, then you can also get a MIDI controller. I use the Kawai VPC for all things keyboard, and a Kenton Control Freak for all the rest. I’ve had mine about 6 years, since my FATAR gave up the ghost. It still works the same as the day I got it. It weighs a lot and is built like a tank.
MY VPC goes via USB into my computer (self build TRX40, Threadripper 3960X, 256GB RAM - 5 years old). I use a SSL2+ audio interface, Ivory 3, Dorico Pro, Cubase Pro, a huge orchestral Sample Library running through VEPro (about 30 instances full up) on a single machine. Latency is almost never a problem, either playing or playing back as I keep an eye on SSL buffer size (default 95% of the time is 512 samples at 48K rate). I sometimes use my speakers but most often use headphones (BD DT770 Pro) as my music room acoustics are a bit iffy for mixing. If you’re curious what the piano sounds like you can listen to this, uploaded a few days ago. I used the Kemble Grand for the video and the VPC with Ivory 3 for the audio…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDN6NFvpdf4
Doing some math, there is a minimum of 10.67ms of latency with those settings, even if the vst/host were to have zero processing time. About the length of a 1/128 note at 180 bpm.
I use interface settings of no more than 3ms (144@48k) as somewhere above there I can start to feel it being a bit off - but the last straw is if you play it layered with a hardware synth or piano; you press one key and hear two notes stutter, you are definitely over the line then
My machine with a solid RME interface runs at 32 buffers @ 48kHz with about 1ms of latency, but I can only do that with Ivory 2. For playback I then switch to Ivory 3 and a bit more latency, but then it doesn’t matter any more!
Hello,
I am currently testing the Studiologic SL88 MK2 GT (with Fatar TP/40Wood) so I have new questions to have other informatiosn about owner of Kawai VPC and people who other have fatar tp/110 :
When you play a note relatively strong with weight what are your sensation at the time of impact?
What does do you feel like at the tip of your finger when you reach the bottom of the key?
Here, I get a feeling of something soft, as if I were tapping a finger on felt or soft rubber placed on a table. Or as if you were muting ta straight piano with a third pedal that pushes felt down between the hammers and the strings. (or also like a bit like when a tuner has over-intonated the hammers).
On “real pianos,” including my grand piano, I’ve never had this feeling. I’m not a big fan of this sensation. I like it when the impact is firm. Do you have any feedback for me? Thank you.
best regards
All midi piano keyboards will have some degree of cushioning involved in order to stop clunkiness. It’s the first thing reviewers pick up on.
I do know that Yamaha produced the finest ever synth keyboard in the DX711.
But I’m not a pianist by any stretch. The Studiologic is well built, and if that’s all you have, then you will adjust in time. But if it shares duties with a real piano in your life, and you are that exacting, then perhaps any midi controller keyboard is going to disappoint you? Maybe not the Yamaha Cp80 though.
