AI generated tracks ?!

Maybe, maybe not. They’d decidedly need to make it modular, whether externally or just internally, in a manner similar to how ARA plugins currently, or VST3 plugins, depending on context, work in Cubase now. This could allow having different teams of designers and programmers involved similar to how most truly complex software projects work. Kind of like SpectraLayers, WaveLab, and Dorico now, really – in the first two cases, ARA provides the middleware that allows the connection (not only for SB products, but also for other developers’ products). And whoever the teams are working on these types of add-ons could focus on the specific utility of the add-ons, albeit with some back and forth between the team providing the hooks and the team providing the specific functionality.

The sort of deep AI-based functionality (or at least LLM training) being talked about here would be pretty specialized to get the depth (e.g. specific instrument knowledge) and breadth (e.g. genre knowledge) needed to truly be useful to a broad range of users. But this is a consideration with loop-based virtual instruments, too. For example, if I’m working on a country rock song (probably about half of my most recent album), LLMs that specialize in EDM or heavy metal aren’t likely to be terribly useful to me. Ditto if I’m wanting a fiddle part and the (lack of) utility of an LLM specializing in strummed acoustic guitars.

IMHO, that is really where third-party specialists come into play, but where the right sorts of hooks are needed on the DAW side. The question on Cubase (for me anyway) is really if additional hooks are needed beyond what can already be done. I know some people are using Dreamtonics Synthesizer V (an AI-based vocal synthesizer that has a selection of vocalist models) with current Cubase – I think via a combination of MIDI and ARA). I don’t have a feel for its limitations within Cubase (I’ve read various posts in these forums on the topic, but I haven’t even attempted using it myself), though, no less whether some additional hooks would be needed to provide smoother integration and/or more functionality. I believe there are also some products out there that do something on the instrumental front, though I haven’t checked those out to date, even to have a sense of what specific instruments they can do and what their capabilities and limitations “on paper” are likely to be.

The other consideration on this scope front, though, is that I think it is important for Cubase itself to focus on the core DAW and extensibility hook(s) functionality to serve the widest group of potential users. The more solid those elements are, the easier it is for others, be it at Steinberg or elsewhere, to make the platform even more powerful for those who have additional needs.

I’d use the analogy that, though Cubase undoubtedly provides a wide range of, both generally useful and somewhat specialist, plugins there are very few that I’ve even tried. Why? Because I only started to come to Cubase in late 2018, making it my main DAW in mid-2020, so I already had my favorite third-party plugins I’d come to in the over decade and a half I was using Cakewalk SONAR. For example, I had no real interest in Groove Agent because I’d already been using Superior Drummer and EZ Drummer, with a wide variety of add-ons to support the genres I work in, and the sequencing and programming potential within those has a lot more capability for the specific need of creating believable drum parts than I’d be able to easily do with generic MIDI and Groove Agent. I don’t see any limitations in this, even today in the face of whatever potential AI might add on this front. For example, I can already specify a general rhythm I’m looking for and have SD3 find potentially matching grooves, which I can use as a starting point and tailor further without having to describe to AI what I want (e.g. “push the snare on 2 and 4” or “add some ghost notes in the third verse”).

The old model that comes to mind on just generating tracks is Band-in-a-Box with its RealTracks. I used to use that to experiment with genres for song demos at one point, but, when deciding what software to migrate to my newly built Windows 11 computer, I’m not even sure if I’ll bring BiaB over since I haven’t actually used it in years (my version of BiaB is 2019, and I don’t think I’ve done much with it since upgrading to that version). That is an area where I could see something like SUNO, or DAW plug-in-based functionality, potentially being useful for some. Even there, though, unless someone is just writing in one style, a wide breadth of genres will be needed to be useful to a wide audience. And, of course, not everyone even has a need for this.

I program guitars, with the intention of replacing them at a later stage. I would rather do this than use AI simply because of the dumbed-down effect that Artificial Intellligence provides but I do use AI to generate vocals, which again, are to be replaced at a later time.

You can use it for vocal melodies, as it helps you to arrrive at where a melody needs to be but if you are still playing a melody, or programming one, then as a human, the AI works like another musician, or singer, in the case of AI generated vocals.

Well yeah, then…as it is now… you don’t have one pile of unwieldily code in a daw-sandwich.

I haven’t personally figured out if all this Suno/dreamtonics etc stuff is github stuff or truly proprietary.

It’s one thing for a zillion products based on spleeter/demucs etc….but if the core code in Suno etc isn’t github based….there are a number of issues with Yamaha/Steinberg to come into the arena from scratch….although for all I know…Yamaha themselves may be way ahead with some sort of proprietary code that they’ve developed over years but haven’t yet sprung on the world. Dunno.

Does it not, depend on which LLM, used?

There are currently 4 to choose from, OpenAI, xAI, MetaAI and Gemini.

While both Suno and Dreamtonics are AI-based, they are different companies, and with different focuses.

Dreamtonics’ Synthesizer V is (conceptually) kind of like a modern, AI-based descendant of the old Yamaha Vocaloid stuff (VOCALOID - the modern singing synthesizer - for their current offering, but I reviewed a Zero-G product, Vocaloid MIRIAM, based on one of their early offerings back in 2004), where you put in notes, add words to the notes, and play around with various controls (e.g. for inflection), and the plugin “sings” what you’ve created. Dreamtonics does have a GitHub ( Dreamtonics · GitHub ), and, just browsing it a bit, it does look like some of what they have there is related to Synthesizer V.

Suno has mostly been in the public eye for its song and recording creation facilities. For example, you can put in a lyric and ask it to write music for you in some specific style. One of my collaborators who is heavily into AI for music asked my permission to try one of my lyrics in there (from an existing song that I’d written as country rock), and he tried generating something like 4 genres with two recordings each. The recordings were all high quality, but the melodies it came up with, while sometimes catchy were mostly not a good match for the lyrics, for example breaking phrases in unnatural places. However, there was one, in a modern pop style that, had I heard it from a cowriter writing music to my lyrics, I would have thought was extremely close, with only a few minor niggles (and it would have been an excellent song demo).

I don’t know what Suno’s underlying software is based on for that stuff, but they don’t appear to have a GitHub. (Google’s AI says the following, but it’s not always trustworthy, “Suno AI is primarily based on Transformer-based models and diffusion models, particularly its proprietary Bark and Chirp models, which are trained on vast datasets of music and speech. These models allow Suno to generate music, including vocals and instrumentation, from text prompts by learning musical patterns and creating new audio waveforms.”)

I also noted, in checking for a little background this afternoon, that Suno recently acquired WavTool, a browser-based DAW, and now they have something called Suno Studio in beta for their Premium users. From just some cursory reading, the idea seems to be to have an AI-based DAW, where you can have it generate the various parts, but still have editing and other controls. (This may be more what some who are asking for generative AI in Cubase have in mind.) They’ve apparently been testing features (not sure if Suno in general or Suno Studio) with some high profile writer-producers like Dallas Austin (https://youtu.be/HjLCORSDYhc?si=LKpI7CFrG32j9p2v). In the short video I saw, he mentions using it for song demos, but another guy whose name I didn’t catch seems to have used it for melody writing, too, at least if I’m understanding what he said correctly.

Well, for singing synthesis, Yamaha sprang Vocaloid on the world sometime prior to 2004. They do claim some AI capability in their latest offering. There’s something of a Vocaloid “cult” community out there – one of my songs, “Make Me Feel”, which was programmed in Vocaloid by my collaborator on the song, Alexei Ustinov, appears in some Vocaloid wikis, with the most popular version being the one Alexei programmed for Sweet Ann and Big Al, 2009-era Vocaloid products from PowerFX. I find the vocals laughable (and did even at the time), but I gather the modern Vocaloids are considerably improved over those of that era. (Alexei also co-produced a version of that song with me with live musicians, in a duet version featuring Beverly Bremers and me – it’s out here on all the typical music streaming sites.)

Yeah, there’s an audio-to-midi function in there as well, but on initial testing, it’s not very good.

Things like that (and the bark/chirp note of yours) causes me to do my routine detective work on the code sources of this stuff.

If it truly IS proprietary, I start detectiv-ing around to find out more about the coder-guys doing the coding….guys behind this.

Who, at this moment in time ….operating completely outside of github ecosystem …are sorta kinda the “smartest guys in the room” atm imo.

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haha….I KNOW Beverly! Did some vocal training at her oc home a few years ago. Small world :slight_smile:

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Haha no, I don’t mean that kind of AI where you write prompts. I mean things like perhaps AI can make any legato crossfades of any length, randomized or controlled, that can help make samples alot more realistic on the fly. Stuff like that, where AI is used to assist or enhance tasks, like sampling, perhaps.

Or perhaps you can record your own sample, and then it can generate an infinite amount of round robins of your own sample for you. So in this case, instead of manually recording several takes of the same sample or performance, you just need to do it once, and it can generate the rest for you without it sounding artificially re-pitched or something.

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Or … you could just record it properly from the start? Uggh. This crap is all so painful for me to digest.

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yeah, I would love an AI to de-suck orchestral samples and stop making them sound unrealistic and plastic. +1 :wink:

All AI stuff should be sold separately as plugins. IPR is still very unclear and users must be able to not get their works dirty by AI in a way that works in a court.

Lol, can’t argue with minds who are made up.

You don’t seem to understand the process I’m explaining. It’s not just “do it properly and manually” - I’m talking about stuff that’s beyond manual human labor.

Lol, you’ve clearly never had to fork out your own money for a real orchestra, have you? Put your money where your mouth is? :saluting_face:

Why would I? I write music for films. The masters I create are owned by the film company…It would be silly of me to fork out thousands of pounds to only hand over copyrights…I have recorded with a live orchestra (thankfully), but not all productions can afford this.

For those who can’t afford live musicians, the only way is to go with VSTis and wrestle with samples until the job is done…

That’s precisely my point - every film company’s budget is different. From my neck of the woods, money for the real thing is virtually non-existent, because costs of living are insane. So I’m a survivor, not a caviar-stuffing high horse.

And so what, are we now to start considering Cubase to create and produce scores from thin air? And I have you know, I love my caviar-stuffing high horse, it’s very confy XD

In all seriousless, I am not quite sure what your argument is here.

Lol why does everybody think anything that isn’t directly done by a human comes from “thin air”? Do your ideas from from thin air too? :rofl: Also, there’s plenty of advantages to using samples over humans. One just needs to know where to look.

Yeap. I sit on the piano and write.

Not for me. Every time I use a VSTi instead of a real person, the musician creates an incredible outcome compared to the VSTi. I even used the so-called “AI Vocal” for a demo, then I used a real person, and the singer destroyed the demo. Simple as.

Anyway man, each to their own….

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