It’s interesting to look through this old thread though to see how many people who said they would leave Cubase have updated anyway, and are still using Cubase. Well, this forum is on the Internet.
Well, it’s very hard to switch away from your main DAW after you’ve invested your whole career working on it and you know it inside and out. I think we just like to threaten leaving so that Steinberg will take some of our concerns or ideas seriously sometimes, when it feels like we are not being taken seriously.
I’ve stuck on 9.0 - simply no point in my updating til the bugs that are crippling me are addressed.
Perhaps more depressing was that this wasn’t a difficult decision to make, I wasn’t even remotely tempted to update to 9.5. It was just a wave of apathy on my part.
I think what’s important here is to know where any potential issues will appear and create a workflow that avoids them.
I read the thread referenced and understand there are some long-term issues regarding “Track Archives and Multitimbral Disabled Tracks (in this logged issues thread here.” Knowing this, what should an advanced or advancing user do to avoid having problems? In other words, if the bridge is washed out down one road, is there another road? I’m not sure I fully understand what the problem is.
In the old days of magnetic tape there were all kinds of problems and huge barriers to entry in terms of cost. Far, far fewer people had access to the kinds of tools and capabilities so many now have in Cubase and the other DAWS.
If a long-standing issue is unresolved, that’s a drag, requests for improvements are fine. But, in the mean time, what are we going to do? Stop making all the great sounds we’re able to make with Cubase?
For me, its simply to stop upgrading as there seems to be very little point. Cubase works, kind of, yet upgrading won’t improve that situation. So it’s a case of lots of compromises, bodges and patching things up on the fly. It’s therefore not a case of flouncing off but inevitably as other DAWs improve, I might well be tempted (especially from Pro Tools as its a DAW I already know).
The issues in that linked thread are so severe that it curtails how I can move forward with Cubase. I’ve started another thread to improve Track Presets, as that might be an alternative option to the buggy Track Archives and Multitimbral disabled tracks. Currently the functionality is so poor its not a contender, but if they were significantly enhanced (and reliable) I’d throw my eggs in that basket.
I’ll look up your thread on Track Presets.
Is there no way to work so as to avoid whatever problems you’re having? Given how much the program does, isn’t there another workflow pattern you can establish so you don’t hit these problems? I’m not suggesting there is but wondering if there is?
Anyway, I understand that uncovering an issue in the process of work is upsetting. You think something is working and should work, but it does not. I’m just glad these kinds of problems don’t require bringing in a different tape recorder or finding time in some other location and praying the equipment there is adequate. Good luck with your projects.
Cheers Stephen - I’ll take a look at the 9.5 track handling to make sure I’ve missed nothing, but I’m 99.9% sure that Track Presets haven’t added routing info, sends, auxes etc, which is the meat of it.
The only other solution is to sort of go back in time, and keep gargantuan templates with everything loaded and ready to go. Having lived through this and got ever-more grumpy at the unwieldy beasts, I’m very reluctant to go back. As it stands, I have a few different templates all based on the same core modular framework, and in each case I’ve fixed all the bugs as far as I can so starting off at least I’m fine (and its a delight to have such light templates). It’s when it comes to adding parts that things can get sticky, but there’s usually a fudge through somehow.
You might have an alternative to gargantuan templates. It’s not as convenient but have you tried File>export>selected tracks? Then File>import>track archive? It’s not as convenient because you are not loading inserts into an existing selected track but instead opening a new track with inserts, send and corresponding FX track.
IIRC this will/should save the inserts with sends, routings, group, and fx tracks. Please let me know if it does not with a repro. It seems there were saving issues depending on the type of track, audio or instrument, but it’s been a while.
Track presets…only good for inserts on the selected track.
Track Archives are one of the two very things causing problems. When you re-load the archive, often the routings drop off or are scrambled. It has all the right features (except it doesn’t save folder tracks, track heights and can’t be inserted at a specific position), but it’s just buggy. Also, the results are variable - often it will work ok first time but then get increasingly erratic.
I think I have been very lucky! Thanks for pointing this out. Now I want to test again in a newer version.
It goes to show for myself that I have never used Track Archives enough or put much faith in Track Presets, Import/Export track archive, or Save/Load selected which I don’t think has ever worked with Track Instruments. Also I believe Save/Load selected requires selecting the exact number of tracks that was saved in order for the user to Load Selected tracks? Regardless, these features are what I would consider things that make Cubase “pro” as they have the potential to streamline workflow.
With 3 similar features, it becomes a bit blurred as to when to use which feature, since only track presets works correctly 100% of the time…assuming the intent was only inserts in a single track and not multiple tracks, groups, sends etc.
Tested again. I tried 4 times but couldn’t get things to screw up other than track colors heights, etc. I used 3rd party and factory tools. But there are a lot of assumptions and way too many variables to consider.
- How I initially create the audio, track instrument, group, and efx tracks.
- linked vs. unlinked mix consoles.
3 All 4 tests, I closed Cubase, then opened it vs. a project with existing tracks and using import>track archive.
- relatively simple test vs. big project with dozens of sends, routings, etc
In the attachments, the only difference is the track colors.
Could anyone create a repro or is the bug always intermittent?
I’ve noticed some of this:
Routing gets “lost” – A is track routed to a group in the original, but when the Archive is imported the routing is lost or mis-routed. I’ve seen this and similar issues mentioned in other posts. I’m tempted to try to reproduce some of these issues and post a step-by-step analysis. This is a complex issue to describe and I’m not sure I’m the best one to attempt it. Others here are far more expert users.
I’ve found that Cubase will get the MIDI data right, but, generally speaking, lots of the more complex routing and even Patch Selection is not retained in Archives (as I wish it were). Import Track from Project seems to work a bit better.
Now, what about “Library.” I’ve not worked with that, but does that, perhaps do some of this better? The OM makes it sound like it’s more for re-using clips in projects, like tags for ads and so on, bumpers, but I wonder if its worth a look?
Not sure if this helps, but In 9.5 the multi-timbral instruments now have, I believe, actual tracks in the Project and in the Mixer for activated Audio Outputs and those tracks can now be moved around like normal tracks. In my version, 9.0.4, for such instruments those “tracks” appear only in the Mixer and can not be re-positioned. This is one reason I will update to 9.5 in the near future. (I use the MIDI tracks for creating and recording MIDI parts, but prefer to mix on audio outputs. I mostly use Instrument Track because it consolidates MIDI and Audio into a neat package).
I’ll post if I find anything potentially helpful with this.
Good testing. Nice project colors, btw.
I think the reality here is that we can expect to have to rebuild things. I’m wondering if Notepad data is imported? If it is, we’d at least have a place to keep some session/track information so that when an archive is imported, those re-build notes – patch names, effects used, routing notes, whatever – would help restore the full sound. A workaround.
Thanks! Credit to Seyoum for his well thought out color pallet.
If anyone could give export/import screenshots where things went wrong on import, (hopefully simple and not too many routings/sends) I would like to try it on my PC. Please keep all plug-ins factory plugs so anyone can attempt to reproduce.
I’m not referring to notepad, track heights, automation, folders…just multiple routings, sends, groups etc. As mentioned prior, I started with a blank project. All tracks were added with right-click in the respective mix consoles. And once Track export saved, I closed and re-opened Cubase with a blank project, then Imported.
I would love to think this is fixed, and ATM I can’t generate errors. In the past I also believe I got a few random errors, but it’s been a while.
I’m using a slightly higher Cubase maintenance update, and would like to test a bit more.
Lots to pick up on here, but since it’s all specific to Track Archives I wonder if this should be in a dedicated thread - maybe the one in issues?
But for the moment - reliably forcing errors is tricky, but it sure happens sooner or later. Opening archives into different projects is a good start to causing trouble. And it does almost seem related to time - stuff that was created yesterday tends to open nicely, stuff from 3 months ago far less so. Essentially a nightmare to debug…
Let me know, I’m happy to split/move this to create a meaningful, easy to find thread.
I, for one, am fine with this being a “Lounge” discussion unless someone can post a reproducible error. Then, that could go in “issues.”
Thanks Steve, I think moving is an excellent idea. This entire thread should not be in Lounge, but regarding the specifics of Track Archives it makes a lot more sense to get input from everyone, since most never even look in the Lounge and this is a technical issue specifically regarding Cubase.
Here’s an example, the first I called up this morning. I have a VE Pro Project for CineBrass - https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6708m1bndxzz1m/CineBrass%20All.vep64?dl=0 , using a Cubase Track Archive - https://www.dropbox.com/s/r2fi5bnplyky8qw/CineBrass%20All.xml?dl=0 . When originally loading the Track Archive, all the mid tracks were routed to output VE Pro 1, whereas infact they were saved distributed among VE Pro 1 and VE Pro 2 (this is using the VST3 instance of VE Pro where you have 8 groups of 16 channels). So to be clear - there is only 1 instance of VE Pro being used as an instrument track, but the midi is saved routed to its 1 and 2 output.
I then resaved over the original track archive (which was created on my previous but identically set up rig), and now it loads correctly routed at least. But all is still not well as you can see from the screen grab:
The screen grab only shows the last few midi tracks due to space, there are many more above this. So what you see here are the last few midi tracks at the top, then a VE Pro multi-out instrument track, showing all the outputs from VE Pro.
The first and most obvious thing to note is that phantom duplicate outputs have appeared (these are under the Cinebrass Audio folder track and are kind of translucent). They appear in some kind of random order, but otherwise mirror the real outputs below. No audio passes through these, though with the disabled tracks bug I get a very similar visual result but audio often DOES pass through those, and is duplicated. In this case they do not appear in the mixer, just the project window. I can reorder and remove these, and then everything looks ok. Again, this isn’t always the case, sometimes it either cannot be edited or it removes the real audio as well.
As is common, track heights are all over the place. The archive was saved all at minimum height, but has been recalled one up from this for the audio tracks, and one bigger again for the midi. It’s a small point and easily corrected, but another example of it being incorrectly recalled.
Again, much of these bugs are very similar to those on multichannel disabled instrument tracks, and one reason I tend to lump these two things together. The common problem concerns incorrect recall of multichannel instrument tracks - I’d hope that fixing one might actually fix both issues (the disabled tracks is now a logged issue as CAN 13042 - https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=253&t=123873 ). And I can’t stress enough - the specific results are seemingly random. Tomorrow I might recall the same track archive and get a different set of results. Routings might get lost again.
This is the thing that makes it so difficult to live with - you never know what it will throw at you next. The only safe recall I’ve found for the multichannel instrument issue is when saved, enabled, as part of a project.