I always enter notes using a MIDI-keyboard and most of the time I enable “Pitch before duration”.
I miss one thing from Finale’s Speedy Entry: If no MIDI-key is pressed, Finale will put a rest with the duration you press on the numeric keypad. You can do kind of the same thing in Dorico: press , (comma) and the use the numeric keys. Dorico will not enter the rests, but just move the cursor. That is fine, because the rests will pop up once you enter some notes.
I realize that “Dorico” does not want you to input rests, but to move the arrow key instead. But if your “muscle memory” knows that 6 is a quarter note, it is much faster to press 6 than to check your grid resolution, realizing that it is set to 1/16 and then press the right arrow key 4 times, or change the grid resolution to 1/8 in order to only have to press the right arrow twice.
But having to press ‘comma’ every time there is a rest in the music slows down the process. Is there a setting somewhere in Dorico like: If no MIDI-key is pressed then just put a rest (or at least move the cursor) instead of entering the previous notes. If I want to enter 4 notes with the same pitch, it’s very easy and intuitive just to keep the midi-key pressed while entering the rhythmic values.
At the end of the day, I am really just trying to make a workflow that is as fast as Finale, as I do this for my daily living.
For myself, I came to Dorico from Sibelius and was ingrained in using the KeyPad (Mac) for all my ‘pitch before duration’ input. I’m also a person who always has my right hand on the MIDI keyboard when composing/arranging.
So, with Dorico, my best work flow investments have been to buy and use a StreamDeck, which you can program and customize to emulate your particular muscle-memory and work flow habits/needs and use with my left hand.
Also, I have an extra 3rd-party KeyPad, which will use the Dorico native Key Commands. The particular KeyPad I have also has the 4-arrow keys and other function keys built into it such as you’d find on the right hand side of a Mac desktop keyboard (which allows for some of you own key command customizations. Not as in depth as the StreamDeck, but certainly fine for using for composing/arranging note input sessions.)
For advancing the caret/cursor, I usually just use the Right-Left arrows that are built into the KeyPad (or emulated on my StreamDeck). I’ll just advance the caret to where I need it, and Dorico will automaticallly take care of the rests as I go.
I also take advantage of using being able to ‘go backwards’ and being able to undo anything I just input by using my left hand on programmed keys for ‘delete’ (or ‘backspace’ or even ‘alt-Z’)…then just use the right-arrow key to move back to the right.
I’ve also programmed KeyCommands on the StreamDeck to jump up and down staves by just using my pinky finger on the KeyPad.
If not using a StreamDeck, check out the offerings at Scoring Central’s ‘Notation Central’ to give you some ideas. They have thoughtful pre-programmed packages that you can further customize to you own needs.
You can also program this to use a different key; some users like using NumPad 0. The key command to look for (in Preferences) is Advance Caret.
Note the distinction: the arrow keys move the caret by the rhythmic grid duration, while the space bar advances it by the currently selected rhythmic input duration.
That doesn’t work when “pitch before duration” is enabled. If I press ‘6’ it will repeat the previous note-pitch.
And if I disable “Pitch before duration” it wouldn’t be a good solultion. Let’s say we have a 4/4 measure and we only need a 1/8 note as a pickup to the next measure. So I need a 1/2 + 1/4 + !/8 rests. I would have to press ‘6’ space ‘5’ space ‘4’ space. That’s way too many key strokes. Or I would need to press right arrow keys 7 times (if grid resolution is 1/8). Also not good.
Or I could press comma, 7 6 5 - probably the fastest way.
But in Finale, you could just press 7 6 5 (well… actually 6 5 4) that is one less key stroke, thus faster…
I am just curious if it is possible to enter music in Dorico at the same pace as Finale’s speedy entry. If you need more key strokes in Dorico, it will obviously be slower no matter how long time you spend learning the software.
There are always different ways to accomplish things, if you can be flexible in your mindset. Assuming you have your rhythmic grid set to 1/8 note, you could press Ctrl/Cmd+right arrow to move to the start of the next bar, then left arrow to move back an eighth. This works in both duration before pitch and pitch before duration.
I can be flexible - and I do exactly that sometimes. But it is a “work-around”, nevertheless.
If I am entering/copying an existing melody line from a piece of paper, I can do this very very fast in Finale’s Speedy Entry. Having to think “I can just advance one bar and go back 1/8” slows down the process. Even with time and practice.
I have worked enough with Dorico to realise that it is far superior to Finale in most areas. I am just trying to figure out if it is possible to enter music as fast as in Finale. It probably isn’t no matter how experienced you get - but I save some time afterwards on tweaking and layouting…
I have to laugh when former Finale alumni (like myself) display an aversion to “work-arounds.” My recollection was that the ability to create work-arounds was a strength, as well as a necessity, when using Finale. Many of the eventual third-party plug-ins were initially work-arounds.
So unless one expects to use Finale until it utterly self-destructs, the time has come to adapt one’s workflow to Dorico and learn how to use it efficiently. That is presumably a more reliable road to success and happiness than waiting for the Development Team to turn Dorico into a Finale clone.
Please take a look at this lead-sheet. You can choose at least 5 different ways to input the notes (and rests) in Dorico. But no matter which method you choose, it will require more key strokes and/or more thinking than Finale’s Speedy Entry. Thus it will be slower.
Finale’s Speedy Entry from 1990 (or whenever it was developed) is unmatched when it comes to speed and efficiency.
However:
Entering the lyrics is way faster in Dorico.
Adding slurs is way faster in Dorico
Layouting is WAY WAY faster in Dorico.
Actually most stuff is better and faster in Dorico.
Just not the “raw entering of notes/rests”
By the way: I wasn’t looking for a heated debate: The original question was just if there is a setting somewhere so you don’t have to press the , (comma) to avoid entering the last selected pitch when you press a number key. If there is such a setting (now or in the future) I actually think that Dorico is at level with Speedy Entry.
It’s not – it’s just that you can’t use a number key to change input duration, because Dorico interprets the keypress as “use the last specified pitch to enter a note of this duration”. So you can only use the space bar to advance the caret by the duration of the last entered note.
There are so many variables here that I don’t think a general statement like this is valid. Speedy Entry meant different things to different people; I was very fast with “my” Speedy, but I am faster now in Dorico (and with fewer keystrokes). It did take a little more thinking at first, to overcome muscle memory, but that went away after a short while.
I am REALLY curious how you can enter the lead sheet I posted with fewer key strokes than Finale’s Speedy Entry. (we are only talking about the notes and rests - no chords or lyrics, repeat signs and all that)
This is probably too much to ask, but I would love to see a video of you entering music, for instance measure 9-12 of the screenshot I posted. How would you do that using fewer key strokes than in Finale??)
So this was one click to enter the bar in question. Then without midi, just with qwerty:
6
space
55
space
4
d
6
f
5
a
66
a
space
4
space
f
6
e
space space
6
f
5
a
66
a
If this is fewer keystrokes than Finale I cannot say − it would depend on what method of entry you use; Midikeyboard? Arrows up and down? Virtual keyboard? However, in Speedy Entry you would save on the rests, but lose on the tied notes.
[Edit: What I did counts to 29 keystrokes. If I compare to Speedy Entry with midi, I count to 20 keystrokes on the qwerty keyboard alone, that would compare to 20 in Dorico if I had used the midikeyboard. So quite similar.]
As @LAE shows, the fact that you can enter compound notes/rests as single items (eighth+sixteenth = dotted eighth, tied eighth+quarter = dotted quarter) is a good time saver. Yes, at first it requires a little more thought to get away from the literal notation.
You might also find that you can remap some Dorico key commands to better fit your workflow. In Finale, I used the qwerty method that gave me three octaves on the computer keyboard. I do miss this, but in Dorico I remapped the bottom row Z-M to a single octave, which I use instead of note names. (I think I only had to move a couple of default Dorico key commands out of the way.) Combined with slightly modified key commands to select the octave and move pitches, I can keep my left hand on the bottom qwerty row and my right hand on the num pad and move pretty quickly.
Dorico is plenty ‘fast enough’ for use when actually composing.
Like, you actually need some thinking time and time to put down the ‘pencil’ once in awhile and work on the music using your piano/MIDI keyboard without just plowing ahead and inputting as fast as you possibly can.
Again, maybe type-setters and publishers and music copyists have the need to just be as ‘fast as possible’. But, for composers/arrangers I don’t think anyone is going to quibble about which program is .5 second faster than the other!
No, because depending on your Notation Options you often don’t have to enter ties and multiple notes in Dorico. Dorico is often faster because it is fewer keystrokes.
This is using pitch-first MIDI input. I’m ignoring the MIDI strokes in the table below as obviously they would be identical to Finale. Here’s what I typed and my right hand never left my numpad:
4, 6, 5, 6. , 0, arrow, 4, 6, 0, 0, 6, 5, 6.
Notice I didn’t have to input any ties in my keystrokes! In 4/4 I always consolidate eighth and sixteenth rests when contained within a beat so my Notation Options are already set up for that. How many keystrokes would this be in Finale including inputting rests and ties?
That’s 20 keystrokes in Finale vs 15 in Dorico. (Not to mention you always have to then run the Patterson Beams plug-in to in order to fix the beaming errors.) By not inputting rests, and often not having to input ties as in this example, it is almost always faster to input in Dorico than in Finale once you have established your Notation Options and know how they will affect grouping.
I am honestly blown away. By a lot of things. First of all your supportive friendliness. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.
I stand completely corrected when it comes down to number of key strokes needed to enter music with rests.
But… Much of my work begins with entering existing music just as it is written. Sometimes all I need is the piece in a different key… I can do this in Speedy Entry without any mental effort - just like you can do the dishes or mow the grass witbout thinking.
But… standing on the last 1/8 of a measure and entering a half note is not how a musician think - and you would never teach it to a student. I understand that Dorico keeps the information that way internally and all the advantages it gives me. But I have to stop and THINK (do the math), which slows down the process and my flow. And no matter how used I get to Dorico it will still be illogical to put a half note on the last 1/8 of a measure.
The good thing, though, is that rhytmic ideas tend to be repeated throughout a piece of music, so you will quickly adapt to it within that piece of music.
I also realize that not one single Ex-Finale user says: Yeah, I’ve gotten used to Dorico and it works fine, but I still miss Speedy Entry… Apparently nobody misses Speedy Entry after a while? Maybe there is still hope?!
But I also realize that there are a lot of threads around the internet (here and elsewhere) with new crossgraders being desperate about missing “Speedy Entry”. I haven’t seen a thread about people missing the Finale-way of adding double bar lines, mid-piece key/meter change etc - because a lot of stuff like that is much better, easier and faster in Dorico.
IF there is a way (when using Pitch before duration is enabled) to move the caret with the number keys without having to press , (comma) first, then I think that we have everything we need. But that is probably impossible since none of you have said how to do it
Again. Thanks to you all for putting up with another average frustrated Finale Crossgrader
