Atmos Beds not panning correctly in top speakers ***SOLVED***

[Paulwr]

I just got back to mixing again after months of arranging.
To my surprise, anything going to the bed will not pan correctly if I assign front top L or R. It goes to all the top speakers and more. If I take the exact track and send as an object to the renderer, it works fine.
First picture from bed, second is the same track as oject to the renderer

Any ideas, or see a pilot error on my part?
Thanks.

[MattiasNYC]

Divergence settings?

[Paulwr]

All divergence settings are 0. I should have shown them.
I take it you do not have this issue, correct? If not, I should do the preferences trick, copy, erase, reinstall from copy. Thanks for the reply and good to see you are still around! I’ve been absent from the forum for a while.

[cmbourget]

The beds are in 7.1.2. So there are only two monitors in height (or two identical pairs). The front-back dimensions are lost. Objects can be moved to 7.1.4, restoring these dimensions. That said, you can feel a little forward-backward movement on the ceiling, illusorily, if it’s accompanied by equivalent panning on the floor. But it’s best to use the more precise object mode. I hope I’ve been helpful and understood the question.

[MattiasNYC]

@cmbourget

The beds are in 7.1.2. So there are only two monitors in height (or two identical pairs). The front-back dimensions are lost.

Doh… I forgot that…

[Paulwr]

Are you saying anything panned in the bed to the top, it goes to all four speakers?
And if so, that is even if you are panned hard left, or hard right top? If you look at the first picture, my hard right top pan position is going to R, C, Sl, Sr, plus all the top, though in different degrees. Just doesn’t seem like correct behaviour… is it? I can work around, but just wanted to understand if I have a tech issue, or a mis-understanding first.

Thanks for helping.

[Sycraft-w]

@cmbourget

The beds are in 7.1.2. So there are only two monitors in height (or two identical pairs). The front-back dimensions are lost.

That is a Dolby decision I will never understand. It is just the least sensible bed max of any I can think:

I could see the argument that beds are 2D only, for 3D you need to use objects, so restrict beds to 7.1.

I could see the argument that beds are backwards compatible to the original DD so are restricted to 5.1 and anything more is objects.

I could see making beds restricted to 7.1.4, 9.1.6, 5.1.4, or whatever sort of bed offers enough speakers to do basic 3D for reverb and the like.

But 7.1.2? Why Dolby, why? What’s the point of going what is basically 2.5D and giving only front height speakers?

Oh well, it’s here to stay for cinema at least.

[kenobi1]

I agree its a bad decision by Dolby. You can transfer the top layer of a 7.1.4 bus to another quad bus then assign those four channels as objects to get around it.

Here we discussed it.

Has anyone successfully solved the riddle of getting a 7.1.4 group into the Atmos Renderer?

Just about everything you’ve touched on there were traps I was about to walk into. Thanks. I have Nuendo control room downmix presets 7.1.4, 7.1, 5.1 and Stereo for composing, but yes adding some additional downmix presets from the renderer makes sense. Since I use touchosc to control them I should be able to group them together with the others. Were you using quick controls, key commands or logical editor/midi remote to access those?

At the end of the thread I came up with this method. I think it can be even simplified by making an “object bed”. By creating multiple (12) objects from the bus in one command. But I have yet to use or test that method.

[Paulwr]

After trashing my preference to trouble shoot, I got the same result.
But I find I can send to the top speaker correctly if I pan to the side speak position.
Top picture and bottom picture illustrate. So I can work, but isn’t it odd what happens when you pan to tops to the front or rear? Livable. Thanks for all the comments.

[MattiasNYC]

@Paulwr

isn’t it odd what happens when you pan to tops to the front or rear?

Yes, it is a bit odd. I suppose we would expect additional signal only in the right side channels.

[cmbourget]

I don’t think so. I assume that the 4 ceiling monitors, in 7.1.2., work as a single pair, and so I logically assume that it’s a pair that can be stereo, so left and right. That’s why I say that front-to-back movements don’t work, unless they’re “helped” by floor movements (at 7.x.x. level). Now, I also know that we shouldn’t think in terms of monitors, but in terms of 3D spatial position. What you command the object to do (by saying: place yourself there), can be interpreted by the bed system as what you’re showing. We can see that there’s no left-right equality, so there’s a left-right panning effect, but a front-back equality because of what I said at the beginning. Conclusion: choose a mode, either object or bed, and work with it, according to your own logic, until you reach the result, without comparing the two modes and the renderer’s interpretation of the space. It may well be that the bed version places the sound in the right place according to your mix, apart from the front-back. In the case you’re showing, and depending on what you’re aiming for, you should choose the more precise object mode.

[MattiasNYC]

@cmbourget

I logically assume that it’s a pair that can be stereo, so left and right. That’s why I say that front-to-back movements don’t work, unless they’re “helped” by floor movements

Yes, but;

@cmbourget

there’s a left-right panning effect, but a front-back equality because of what I said at the beginning.

The question is why the left channels should receive any signal when you’ve panned the signal hard right. I understand why we end up with signal in your ‘regular’ floor level front right channel - since there is no front/rear in the top in a bed. But it is odd that you get signal in for example the center as well.

[Paulwr]

Exactly. No way I consider it proper behavior by the panner in Nuendo for beds.
But… for using the tops, in the panner, aiming for middle front/back (it is very forgiving, such as between 25-75% gives you the middle) and then pan left/right as desired and you are golden.

Thanks to all.

[cmbourget]

It’s all about hearing. Is the sound in the right place (relatively speaking), without any visual aid?

[Blas]

Gentlemen, I am so very grateful for your better understanding of these more-in-detailed discussions. I only wish I had the full ability to absorb these concepts. Please keep enlightening the lost feeling I have, in attempting to start to better grasp all this information. Thank you!