I’m using Dorico 3.5.11.1054 on Windows 10.
Everything in playback in Dorico sounds panned to the right, for every project. If I pan the output in the mixer 50 to the left the sound is balanced between channels. Every other sound application on the computer plays back properly.
Any ideas what this could be?
Thank you,
David
Never heard something like this before. Please load a project and do ‘Help > Create Diagnostics Report’ and attach the corresponding zip file here. Thanks
Cresny, for what it’s worth, this happens to me on Mac occasionally too. It’s been happening for months and it seems totally random; in fact this just happened to me on Monday again. Approximately every 2-3 weeks, my sound will suddenly be panned hard L or R. Going into the preference pane in mac and placing the slider back to the middle fixes it instantly. What is so odd is that it appears Dorico is commanding this to happen. I use a simple USB dac that has no external controls apart from a volume nob. The only way to pan is via the preferences pane in the system settings, and this is something that I NEVER touch except to fix the problem whenever it occurs. It’s all very odd.
The difference for me is that normally my signal is normally balanced and then it randomly pans of its own accord. Mine isn’t panning for every project.
Thank you both! Attached is the diagnostic report.
It turns out I think I found the cause: I’m writing duets for 2 violas or viola and cello, and there appears to be a default panning for strings: violin is left, cello is slightly right, and viola is hard right. So when I write for 2 violas both are already panned right. The strange thing is the mixer, and all the controls in Halion SE show the voices all centered. That default panning must be somewhere in a control available to us, I would hope. Anyone know where else that could be?
David
Dorico Diagnostics.zip (1.34 MB)
Hi David, thanks for the data. Dorico has an own mixer where you can balance and pan the instruments; you open the mixer window with F3. There you’ll see that the output channel is panned hard right. You might ask, who did that panning and how? I don’t know, usually only the operator himself.
Ulf, thank you.
This test project has only 2 violas, and in my sound output they all sound panned to the right, even though in the mixer they and the master output are all centered. Do you get the same output?
David
only violas test project.zip (1.19 MB)
Dorico Diagnostics.zip (1.41 MB)
With this test project you are right. The Dorico mixer is all panned center, still the violas come out more to the right, but not hard right, still a little bit out of left as well. But one can see in the metering on the HALion Sonic SE editor window, that indeed the violas are panned more to the right by default. You can adjust this by going to the edit tab in that window, there is a pan knob.
Cresny’s situation almost sounds as if the VST is sending a mono signal to one channel of a stereo in, except that only leakage would account for any signal on the other stereo channel.
My two cents.
I did notice that effect sometime ago (I’m on Mac), and as other said, it’s random (perhaps, due to different instrument set, it could be more or less audible).
Here’s utterly simplified demo that shows the effect: the same note taken sequentially on violin, viola and cello.
On my external speakers violin sounds panned left, viola sounds panned right, and cello (surprisingly) sounds center.
Admittedly, the panning is not dramatic, yet, on my external speakers it’s unequivocally there. Needless to say, that the mixer hasn’t been touched and shows all three being perfectly centered.
It looks like that unintended panning has something to do with Halion, because switching to NotePerformer eliminates that panning completely.
Here are two zips: minimalistic test project and the diagnostic report.
Unintended panning.dorico.zip (1.84 MB)
Dorico Diagnostics.zip (1.5 MB)
Hope that extra data would help to further investigate the issue.
IB
Thank you, all!
It seems as though the instrument samples in Halion are set up “pre-panned” so when you load an ensemble you get a sense of acoustic space without having to pan instruments manually. Ulf, do you know if this is the case?
In my edit tab of the Sonic Editor window on my projects the pan knob is centered, but the violin still is panned left, violas right, and cello just slightly right (this corresponds to a common string quartet setup with the violist on the outside). Igor, I do hear exactly the same effect on the three instruments with your project.
Unfortunately I don’t have NotePerformer to be able to compare.
David
Not sure about Halion, but this is the norm for most non-solo orchestra parts. The main recording mics for an Orchestras are set up in a" tree" in the center/front approximately where the conductor is, as that’s the point where the balancing done by the players is most true. There are some differences in trees, but the goal is the same - to capture a wide true-to-life stereo picture. They don’t move the those mics or the players from their originally seating when they record them - they SHOULD sound like the player is just to your left and two rows back or whatever. Some libs have additional surround and close mics - which may be what you are wanting, and solos almost always are recorded close or have close options.
Not sure about Halion, but this is the norm for most non-solo orchestra parts. The main recording mics for an Orchestras are set up in a" tree" in the center/front approximately where the conductor is, as that’s the point where the balancing done by the players is most true. There are some differences in trees, but the goal is the same - to capture a wide true-to-life stereo picture.
They don’t move those mics or the players from their originally seating when they record them individually - they SHOULD sound like the player is just to your left and two rows back or whatever. Some libs have additional surround and close mics - which may be what you are wanting, and solos almost always are recorded close or have close options.
Thank you, Gdball. You are quite right there are a few standard expected setups for a symphony orchestra, and it is a useful shortcut for Dorico users to have them pre-panned like this. There are also many alternate stage arrangements I’ve taken part in either in concert and recordings, like double orchestras side-by-side for Bartok’s Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste. It seems this would be impossible to accomplish with the samples as they are now.
My disappointment with this discovery is that there seems to be no way for me as the end user to have full control over the placement of the instruments through either the mixer or the controls in Halion. If I want the violas on the far left of the stage (100left, a standard choice in orchestral pieces with no violins) I can only move them over one-half of the stage length from where the default has placed them (50Right plus 100Left = 50Left). Also I just want to mention these are all solo instruments I am using, so it would make more sense to have complete control over where I can place them.
I submit it would be much better if in a future update the default panning was accomplished with one of the user-accessible controls so we could change them as we need.
David
Ah, I see what you want. You could put them 100% to the left if you like today - if you use an insert to swap the left/right channels with a VST something like MSED from Voxengo (free). You could also use it to pan just the mid or just the side stereo information, and emphasize the mid or side a little more. You do have pretty much full control of position “with a little help from your friends” though you might also need to do things like tweak the reverb pre-delay to represent the new relationship between the section, listener, and nearest walls;
Thanks, Gdball. I’ll give that a try.
Still seems like an oversight that I can’t do that out of the box with Dorico, especially as we’ve discovered that solo instruments are panned like they were orchestra sections.
Ulf, I would appreciate it if you would bring this to the development team for future update consideration.
David
Since this appears to be a HALion default, it is likely not possible to change in Dorico’s programming, and since HALion seems to be considered a mature product by Steinberg, the chances of any work being done on it now are likely minimal.
Not that it wouldn’t be nice, just that I think it unlikely to change.
Yes, there’s effectively zero chance of any major sound design work being done on either the existing HALion Symphonic Orchestra content or the other HALion Sonic SE factory content, I’m afraid. The sound design team is fully loaded with other, higher priority projects and my expectation is that will always be the case.
Thank you all. It’s very helpful to understand the design fully and know that there are work-arounds.
David