Automatic clef change for trombones

Dorico
1

Tenor trombones are traditionally notated in tenor clef and bass clef.

Sometimes a composer/engraver will use one of those clefs exclusively. In other cases, one of the clefs will be predominant.

If, for instance, the part is written in tenor clef, a single deep note with a couple of auxillary lines will possibly pass without a clef change. A more extended passage in a deeper, bass clef-y register might spur a clef change.

I don’t have access to Behind bars or other similar literature, so I can’t tell if there are notation rules for when to change clefs.

If there are such rules, I would like to suggest that they are baked into Dorico as an option for “automatic clef change” in cases like for tenor trombones, possibly other instruments (bassoons?) are in the same situation.

Weird request, but still. Wouldn’t it be cool?!

2

Not meaning to come across as a curmudgeon, but no I don’t think it would be cool. There aren’t actually any “rules” for that sort of thing. Anything that people like Elaine Gould have published which discuss notation issues are really just what they have gleaned from wide research through the literature. They’re more “guidelines” than “rules.”

I think that the more we ask Dorico (or any notation program) to make that sort of thing available the more we are A) asking for bloatware because every instrument has its idiosyncracies of notation and trying to program them into a single program simply adds a lot of extra code that will most likely not be used frequently if at all by most users; B) asking for development efforts and budget to be drawn away from more integral aspects of the program; C) longer learning curves as the users have to learn just which optional notation traditions can be turned on or off, and exactly how much of that tradition has been programmed and whether or not it will agree with any particular user’s wishes.

It’s not hard to enter clef changes – the basic rule of thumb that I learned is that if it’s for a few notes, don’t change the clef, if it’s for a more extended passage, change the clef. And don’t keep changing the clef back and forth frequently.

Besides, in the band world and in most beginner instruction books tenor trombone is typically notated all in bass clef. So adding the option you’re asking for would only serve a very small segment of the notation software user base – those who are engraving traditional literature, mostly from the 18th and 19th centuries.

3

Very well. It is still one of the references the Dorico team has declared to heavily use as a reference for their work.

They’re more “guidelines” than “rules.”

Of course. They are however more often referred to as “rules” than “guidelines”, hence my use of the word.

I think that the more we ask Dorico (or any notation program) to make that sort of thing available the more we are A) asking for bloatware because every instrument has its idiosyncracies of notation and trying to program them into a single program simply adds a lot of extra code that will most likely not be used frequently if at all by most users;

Many options already in Dorico will most likely not be used frequently by most users and I suggest we all consider us lucky for it. It would be difficult to design a program, expected to be used by people of an extremely wide range of needs, from that end and not the opposite.

B) asking for development efforts and budget to be drawn away from more integral aspects of the program

I’m completely confident the team is capable of weighing what’s most important of the tons of requests they receive. I am sure you need not worry.

C) longer learning curves as the users have to learn just which optional notation traditions can be turned on or off, and exactly how much of that tradition has been programmed and whether or not it will agree with any particular user’s wishes.

I disagree. There would be no difference between the option I am putting forward and the options that are already available (“hundreds” as explicitly reported by the team), and the ones that inevitably will be added. There’s a choice, you make it or you don’t, and that’s what’s to it to the end user.

It’s not hard to enter clef changes

I didn’t assert as much.

– the basic rule of thumb that I learned is that if it’s for a few notes, don’t change the clef, if it’s for a more extended passage, change the clef. And don’t keep changing the clef back and forth frequently.

This goes without saying, as long as there are no inherited engraver’s rules that are agreed upon. As I said, I didn’t know if such rules exist, and because you don’t know of such rules either, does not mean there aren’t any.

Besides, in the band world and in most beginner instruction books tenor trombone is typically notated all in bass clef. So adding the option you’re asking for would only serve a very small segment of the notation software user base –

This, really needless to say, does not preclude an option from being included in a notation software program.

those who are engraving traditional literature, mostly from the 18th and 19th centuries.

This, needless to say etc.

4

This changes according to instrument, genre, country etc. Bassoonists often want a clef change even for one note only just outside the staff. Big band trombonists can read plenty of ledger lines in bass clef but it’s unsafe to assume the same in tenor. A principal orchestral trombonist won’t mind ledger lines in tenor. None of these are rules and plenty of players would argue these. This is why copying is a professional job.
I’ve played charts where the trumpet lines jump octaves (without logic) where they hit Finale’s very conservative playing ranges. You have to know stuff to do this stuff.

5

Indeed. As a trombone player myself, I have encountered the four and five ledger lines of jazz lead voices, the alternating use of tenor and bass clefs of the symphony and wind ensemble repertoire, the transposing parts in treble clef in the British style brass band, the Breitkop edition of Mozart’s vesperae de confessore where the alto trombone part is provided both in treble clef and alto clef, the peculiar Shostakovich tradition of writing both tenor trombone parts in alto clef … So I guess I know the answer to what I’m asking, since there appear to be no engraving rules, oops, guidelines.

So, to sum up my request/question, which apparently should have been styled more as a question than a request: I already know, based on decades of professional experience, how to do this, and those are the only rules, oops, guidelines. Disregard and as you were.

6

Yes, it’s called the Road Map, and I am confident the Team will follow it in a way that reflects their study of the issues deserving solutions without being unduly distracted by individuals who want the program automated to do everything except (or perhaps including) composing their music.

7

We’ve certainly thought about the issue of creating clef changes (and perhaps octave lines) automatically, but I’m not sure we could do so in such a way that it wouldn’t do it in a way that you would find undesirable at least some of the time. We want Dorico to be able to do automatically the things you would do yourself, but I worry that trying to do this might cause frustration, and you’d end up turning the option off anyway.

8

This sounds like a fantastic idea for a plugin, once the proper scripting tools are up and running.

9

As a plug-in that is run “after the fact” I think it would be a great idea – enter the music straight through using whatever clef the user finds most common, then run the plug-in with options set as desired (e.g. number of notes affected by each clef-change, the distance of the pitches above or below the staff), and have the clef-changes inserted by the plug-in.