@mavros , thank you for your detailed outline of the practical and playback differences between the VSL and Babylonwaves templates!
In most cases when VSL uses addons they are actually incorrect use of addons and they should be done with a larger number of base switches instead. They are producing a potentially buggier map to decrease the initial map creation work for themselves.
Not sure if you are commenting on the volume controller issue, but yes, that’s what I did and Babylonwaves fixed it almost immediately.
Can you give some examples where you have issues?
The VSL EM add-ons (sul pont, flautando, vibrato, con sordino etc.) for Duality Strings work well. Although the two attack related ones are not ideal being attribute type.
I recently and still have trouble with the add-ons for Duality Strings for con sordino and senza sordino (and some I added myself) which seem to cancel the required transposition used for natural harmonics but this a Dorico bug.
It’s not necessarily that I’m having issues but I have had issues because they use this approach.
The problem with using add-ons for the wrong things is that add-ons are assumed to apply on top of all articulations. So they really only are guaranteed to work properly when they are global - ex. it is always there and always the same regardless of what articulation you are using, and the same keyswitch can never be used for anything else aside from that.
An example of where addons work well is with Cinematic Studio Strings - the “con sord” there is simulated so the list of articulations is 100% identical with no differences whatsoever. The con sord keyswitch is global and it is a global switch in the interface.
However, if there is even a single articulation that is not available in both con sord and senza sord then you aren’t supposed to use addons. If you do use addons even in this case, if you try using the missing articulation, you will get some random articulation that you didn’t ask for when it changes, and this will be based on the keyswitches in common with the previous valid technique. They didn’t record muted bartok pizz for instance in Duality. So if you ask for Bartok Pizz in a muted section, what articulation will you get? I have no idea, it is a surprise! And, you might get a different one each time, depending on what the last articulation was! How exciting! You get similar fun randomness if you try using hard staccato or senza vibrato longs in a muted passage (which are similarly only available in Duality Regular). People might think they were playback bugs in Dorico but would be caused by bad programming of the map.
It’s also a big problem if they reuse the same keyswitch in a different branch of the dimension tree for a different purpose. I reported an issue with their map for Synchron Solo Strings where if you mark a passage vib. (for molto vibrato) and you have any staccato notes in that passage, it would play each individual staccato note as four bouncing saltando/ricochet notes. This is because in the short notes category they reused the same keyswitch for saltando/ricochet that they used for molto vibrato in the long notes/legatos sections. Once they use that keyswitch in the longs/legatos for molto vibrato they have to make absolutely sure that nobody at VSL who is making presets uses that same keyswitch for something else anywhere else in it, in any other branches of the dimension tree. It is super easy to make that mistake, especially given that most of the branches will auto increment keyswitches as you add new techniques to them.
So the problem with addons is also that if they ever forget about this and they ever re-use the keyswitch for something else in the future in a different part of the same preset/dimension tree, suddenly peoples Dorico projects will start playing back that section with the wrong technique. If VSL was a company that never went back to add new things into old libraries it might not be a big problem, but they are, and the people building the presets for the new instrument might not know that the keyswitches they are choosing could break Dorico because of the way that someone else at VSL made the map with addons when they shouldn’t have.
Using addons for scenarios they shouldn’t be used for is a guarantee for more glitches and bugs unless all of your developers/employees are perfect and never make any mistakes. That’s not realistic.
When making a map that uses combinations of base switches instead, in the case of missing articulations, Dorico will recognize that you’re asking for one that doesn’t exist and will substitute another one based on its internal ruleset for failover, so you won’t hear exactly what you’re asking for because it wasn’t recorded, but at least the substitute you get will make sense. With addons, Dorico assumes every permutation exists in the library, so it will send keyswitches for the permutation you ask for and if it doesn’t actually exist in the library, what you get depends on what those keyswitches actually end up doing, which will depend in part on what articulation you are coming from and what articulations you used earlier (i.e. it will depend on the current state of the synchron player). So in some cases you might even hear a different technique if you jump to that section from just having played back some other unrelated section than if you get to that section by playing from the beginning.
I can guarantee that if you start playing around with switching between articulations and trying to ask Dorico for stuff that doesn’t exist, you’ll start to find bugs in most of their maps. They aren’t hard to find. But you just don’t encounter them as frequently when you stick to the very common techniques.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. The EM might actually have been updated for the vibrato issue. I agree there are a lot of small issues with the maps which pop up when you use them each day.
There also is an issue with violins 1 for the r+s+c+v preset where the CS pizzicato has the wrong instance key switch level to match the EM. It should be C1 white notes only but it is D#1 chromatic. Regular pizz CS should be C1 and Col legno D1 whereas there is no snap pizz for CS as you mentioned (which is C#1 for non CS). Funny enough the other presets without virtuoso or colors for violins 1 and also the violins 2 for r+s+c+v are OK.
I’ve bought these EM’s and have been trying them out for the past week.
Using them with the VSL Studio Solo Strings Collection, I’m finding that simple things like assigning a harmonics to a single note, is a challenge. So far they only have natural harmonics playback technique, which wouldn’t work for artificial harmonics.
I found that they flipped the switch that assigns staccato vs sustain harmonics.
I also couldn’t figure out how to even create a playing technique that can trigger these groups of switches for each harmonics type. If anyone has run into this challenge, I would appreciate help with a solution.
do you use the natural harmonics as well as the artificial ones? The former are only available in the full patch – I’d expect Art Conductor to map to the artificial harmonics (eg F#1,C2) rather than the natural harmonics (eg C1,A1,C#2,F2). And things are complicated by the fact that Dorico has only the natural harmonic ring playing technique, though of course through Properties, you can change that to represent artificial harmonics as well and there are playback techniques for both. However if you use both types in the map and the Art Conductor only supports one of them, then you’ll have to add appropriate EM entries for the other and potentially create a new playing technique as well
Without actually having the maps (I prefer to use my own), I can’t comment on how they could flip a switch which assigns staccato v harmonics but with luck @mducharme or someone else could come up with specifics.
If I recall correctly, both types of harmonics in Dorico only triggered the “Natural Harmonic 1” playback technique. I don’t know if this has changed recently. But when initially testing it before release, the Artificial Harmonics were not triggering unless you manually added a playing technique for them, just making them harmonics didn’t do it. Setting the expression map for “Natural Harmonic 1” instead caused them to play back correctly just by making them harmonics without having to add manual playing techniques to the mix.
I think you’ll find that if you make a map on your own, if you make an artificial harmonic using the harmonics panel at the bottom, and you assign the expression map slot the “Artificial harmonic” playback technique, it will not trigger, but if you assign the slot the “Natural harmonic 1” playback technique instead, it will trigger.
So I take “Natural harmonic 1” to really mean “Harmonic” as it stands at the moment (as a generic thing, natural or artificial). the “Artificial harmonic” playback technique is maybe intended for future use but doesn’t seem to be mapped right now so without using a custom playing technique to trigger it I don’t think it will trigger.
Obviously the situation may be different where the library has sampled both natural and artificial harmonics as their own separate things and then you might need a way to trigger the different things. Most libraries though just have a single “harmonics” patch that is presumably artificial harmonics and doesn’t sample natural harmonics at all.
Interesting possible alternative:
ArtiQverse
The Universal Articulation Mapper
Create, convert, edit, and share articulation maps across all major DAWs
the trouble here is, as far as I can see, that you still have to create your own maps – you simply get a tool for doing so which may save a little time. I’d rather just work directly with the Dorico EM editor
Hey Everyone:
this is not a rant and in no way am I griping about the product or developer
just trying to get a sense here. I’ve been at this EM thing for a while now and I am convinced I am doing something wrong, I have to be.
I got Art Conductor maps months ago and have really struggled;
I have VSL, NI orchestra (I know, I was young), BBCSO, etc. tried scouring the internet and Youtube.
I simply cannot get some of these to work without serious disassembling and modifying.
Choir Omnia didn’t respond to dynamics
VSL percussion plays rolls not single hits
there is a bunch of other stuff I just gave up on this is just what I’ve tried to fix up again lately
Again, I am not complaining about the product or the service. The proprietor of Babylon Waves has been awesome when I contacted him
I simply am wondering; is everyone else have them up, running, and loving it?
I am trying to get away from my dependence on Noteperformer.
Thanks for the help!!
Patt
I’m using them exclusively and having great results. I do make minor modifications to suite my needs but otherwise getting good results here.
I will also say I make note length modifications as well as CC1/CC11 mods, but that has nothing to do with Babylon Waves.
Hey @winknotes Thank you for that!!