This may be a controversial solution, but what if you didn’t have to set a location for your project when you first start on it? What if you could just choose this on save or closing?
You are not setting a location for your “project” as in project file.
You set a location for Cubase to know where to store audio recordings and edits to. That is called the “project folder” but could also be called the “asset storage”.
Wouldn’t it be a shame if you start your audio recording and then Cubase asks you for a location of the recording? Flow breaker.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding. But when I start a new session in Ableton Live, or Logic Pro, as examples, I don’t have to set a location for the project folder (with audio recordings/edits and project files in it) until I press Command+S or Save from the Menu.
So where does Logic store an audio recording? Or does it prompt you for a location once you hit the record button?
Nope, both of those DAWS never prompt for a recording location until you actually press save. And they force a “Save As” when you do a first save.
I’m not exactly sure where it saves all the audio files until you do Save, but it obviously keeps them somewhere temporary until you Save it. It’s basically like recreating this system you guys have described but as a default workflow.
In fact, if you try to close an Untitled, unsaved Logic project, it will prompt you before allowing you to Quit, telling you that if you don’t Save now, the project will be deleted.
When Logic crashes before you’ve saved an Untitled, unsaved project, it does usually have an Autosave of that saved in a default location I believe.
Ableton does this exact same thing, except I believe it doesn’t delete projects if you don’t save them, it just saves them as Untitled in a default location — I think.
The point is, I’ve never had problems with those applications. Other applications, like Pages, Numbers, Affinity Photo, Photoshop, Visual Studio Code, all implement a saving structure similar to this. I’ve never had a problem with it.
Cubase’s way of saving feels very old-school. Having to pick the folder you’re gonna save it in before you even start the project is something I haven’t had to worry about in other programs. I don’t have a huge problem with the way Cubase does this, but I’m just saying it is kind of an outdated approach.
Since I have neither Logic nor Live I tested it with Reaper.
I found that Reaper stores an audio recording in the Documents folder (Windows), which happens to be on my system drive. I have not found a way to tell Reaper to store the files on my media hard drive other than doing exactly what I need to do in Cubase.
I consider this a shitty design from Reaper and much prefer Cubase’s way.
As far as I can tell none of these programs need to cater for saving spontaneous creative work. If you create an image in Photoshop and the computer crashes before you save your work is gone.
Again, you are not picking a folder where the project gets saved to. In fact, when it comes to project files Cubase behaves like all the other programs that you have listed.
You are only being asked for a storage location for recordins (and destructive) edits.
Personally I always use the same folder when starting a project form scratch, so for me it is just pressing the return key when the file dialog appears.
Seems like a lot of discussion about when to choose a Save Folder.
You got to do it sometime, Cubase just makes you do it first.
I’ve had no issues renaming folders or project files, but then, I save everything to the project folder, and Cubase appears to use relative paths, not absolutes.
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Temp, default folders without any attribution 
As others have commented, I don’t view this as a “problem,” it’s just “different.” You can absolutely set a “default” folder in preferences, and when Cubendo opens and you create a project, you simply click “Open” (on Mac, insert Win dialog option here) and that’s that.
I like this better as I explicitly know where my audio files are going, and I can leave them all there in perpetuity as I get on with my life, knowing where to go if/when I need them. I actually make copies of my CubaseTemp and NuendoTemp folders from time to time just to make sure any creative nuggets are saved.
I think what may be hanging you up is the ‘you must select the folder first’ as if you’ve had to think about your project before-hand: you don’t. Just set a default folder and you’re literally a single-click (or return) from Nirvana. I meant the place, not the band. Unless that’s what you’re into, of course.
In that sense, the Cubendo approach is “better” as you always have full control of exactly where items are placed, and you don’t have to go looking for where Ableton created the temp folder.
Not to belabor the point, but I can illustrate the value with a simple question: In Ableton, when you record audio in the default project, where is it? Does it create temp recordings in the last folder you were in? Does it create them in %Temp% environmental variable? Or somewhere else? You, and others, probably don’t know the answer to that. You always will with the Default Project setting and/or selecting one.
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@babble
This is what Thor.HOG means. In the hub:
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Yes sir, sorry. I should have been more thorough in my post!!!
Again, you are not picking a folder where the project gets saved to. In fact, when it comes to project files Cubase behaves like all the other programs that you have listed.
You are only being asked for a storage location for recordins (and destructive) edits.
Well, thats just my lingo. When I say “pick the folder you’re gonna save it in” i mean, picking a location for the entire “project folder” (which might be the wrong vocabulary) that saves your project file, and all audio and edits.
And all of those applications I listed do need to cater for saving spontaneous creative work…
I don’t use photoshop much, but in the other applications I listed, I’ve never had a problem when the computer crashes. I’m always able to rediscover my unsaved projects.
Anyway, I don’t hate the way Cubase does it. I just think it is uniquely old-school (or maybe - Windows-like instead of Apple-y). The way I’m describing is a very Apple-inspired “it just works” approach with less immediate flexibility, but again, I don’t mind the Cubase way. Also maybe I’m just misunderstanding the whole issue.
Anyway, Cubase probably shouldn’t change this. Seems like long-time Cubase users like the way it works
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Not your project file! Your project file only gets saved when you go to File menu → Save (as). And then you have to select a location for it.
Use the “Default” option in the hub and Cubase behaves 100% as per your request.
So say my “Default” location is in a location on my computer called “Cubase Defaults.”
My audio and edits get saved there, no project file?
And then, when I “Save As”, and decide I want to save the project to my “Amazing World-Changing Ideas” location on my hard drive, does that just save the project file in that location or does it move the complete Project Folder with all audio and edits to that location as well?
Correct.
Correct.
Nope. You can use “File → Backup Project” to chose a new project folder location. However, stuff gets only copied, never moved.
Nope. You can use “File → Backup Project” to chose a new project folder location. However, stuff gets only copied, never moved.
I think that is the issue with this system, in my opinion and seemingly the opinion of OP. The issue is that if you don’t know what you’re about to create, you have to choose a default location anyway and when you want to save the entire project folder with all audio, edits, and project files, you have to either use Backup Project or move the folder. And if you don’t move the folder and choose to “Backup Project”, then you have to go back to where your default location is and delete the original folder. And its always scary to delete things even if you know you have a copy. It’s just a little clunky in my opinion.
Other DAWs that I have used are much more streamlined when it comes to this. But I guess there are advantages and disadvantages, although I’ve never felt the disadvantage when using the systems implemented by the other DAWs I’ve mentioned. Some may, though.
Not to belabor the point, but I can illustrate the value with a simple question: In Ableton, when you record audio in the default project, where is it? Does it create temp recordings in the last folder you were in? Does it create them in %Temp% environmental variable? Or somewhere else? You, and others, probably don’t know the answer to that. You always will with the Default Project setting and/or selecting one.
You’re right, I’m not completely sure where Ableton or Logic saves these temp files (though I believe on Mac it defaults to the Documents or Music folder) - but again, I’ve never had an issue. Whenever I have had a crash or closed a project before saving, I’ve never had a problem getting back to it as it usually in the “Recent Files” in the File>Open Recent dialogue. If it isn’t in recents, I can easily find the original files. Maybe I don’t know off the top of my head where they are, but it’s just a quick google search away or doing some digging in Finder.
The Cubendo approach is “better” as you always have full control of exactly where items are placed, yes, but, atleast in my workflow, I don’t often need to go back to those default locations — if I like what I’m making, I find a home for it before I close the session. Crashes happen way less often for me compared to how often I ‘save as’, and it seems like the Cubendo approach is prioritizing a crash/troubleshoot workflow over a more simplistic save workflow.
If my Logic or Ableton sessions crash before saving, which is rare, I can troubleshoot that when I cross that bridge and find the temp files. But since that happens so rarely, I appreciate the way they’ve implemented saving over the Cubendo approach as it is much more streamlined, simple, and works exactly how you would expect.
I guess the best middleground would be for the “Default Location” in Cubase to instead be a “Temp Location” that you can specify, and when you “Save As,” the entire session folder including the session files, edits, and audio files move to the new location instead of having to “Back Up Project” and delete the old folder to get everything where you want it to be.
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It took me a while to get the hang of Cubendo’s file management, but once I did, I liked the options. It’s not about “crash management” for me (I hardly ever get any crashes at all) it’s about a structured approach to project management. I got so used to the Logic way of savings projects a Packages that I it took a bit of time to figure it all out. No biggie, really - to me “more options” are better than “less.”
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I read threads here where people have worked for several hours, recording, etc, before doing a “Save As” - that could mean gigabytes of data. If Steinberg implemented this, a whole bunch of people would complain about how long a first save takes.
I work in Visual Studio - it takes the Cubase route of insisting on a Solution folder when you start a new Solution, along with the option to have a project folder within it. (VS Solutions may have multiple projects.)
I also work in VEGAS, which just saves a project file, and doesn’t give a toss about anything else, it’s assets can be anywhere, in other words, it requires very careful management of project assets so that VEGAS can find them.
The Cubase route of putting everything in the Project folder (except video files, for some reason) forces that careful management.
With hard drives cheap as chips these days (I have 21 terabytes of internal storage and another 14 external), it makes more sense to me to put every thing in the project folder from the get go. It’s an easy matter to start with a random folder/project name and change it later to something valid - because, as I’ve said, Cubase uses relative paths to find your projects assets.
I’ve got a whole bunch of half-finished projects on an external backup drive. If I fancy working on one, I just copy the whole folder to my “working projects” drive. Cubase has no problem finding audio files, because they are all there in the Project folder. (Missing plugins (because I use some other plugin now) is another topic…)
I don’t know if it would take a lot of time just to move a folder if its on the same hard-drive, but I guess if you use multiple hard drives then yeah it could be a problem.
I have no problem with Cubase putting everything in the Project folder - this is however not too different from how Logic does it either. Everything goes into the folder, all the assets can never be lost as long as you maintain that folder. I just like how Logic doesn’t determine a definitive ‘home’ for the Project folder until you Save As. But I guess that’s just what I’m used to, and like I said - I haven’t had an incredibly hard time dealing with the switch from Logic to Cubase as far as project saving goes. Cubendo file saving works just fine. I just prefer the Logic way, if I had to choose.
I resonate with Thor.HOG’s sentiment that more options are better than less. I don’t fully agree, but I don’t disagree at all. Coming from Logic, I have a newfound appreciation for the way Apple designs their products and applications. You don’t get as many ‘options’, but everything just works, everything feels like it is in its right place, and if its not - well too bad cuz its not moving…and then you get use to it and it inevitably starts to feel like the right place after some time. There is a certain beauty to design like Apple’s, even if there is less flexibility.
But then again, I switched to Nuendo for a reason — more flexibility and more professionally-focused features. And the direction Logic seems to be going recently is geared towards the novice, while I can see Steinberg is still gearing their products for professional applications.
But I would love to see some inspiration from Apple in Cubase. A taaad less flexibility to force certain workflows may make a lot of people angry, but in the long-run it would simplify the software in a lot of ways and probably make it easier to fix the insane amount of bugs in Cubase.
It is a double edged sword tho — cuz if they force a workflow I like then I’m very happy with a more streamlined design; but if they mess with a workflow I love, then I’ll likely be very upset.
It’s difficult, because I think the flexibility of Cubase is one of its biggest strengths but also one of its biggest weaknesses. Reaper, for example, has gone all in on flexibility. You can basically design Reaper to work however you’d like. Ableton and Logic, on the other hand, are set up to work in a certain way and it can be very difficult to customize. Cubase is somewhere here in the middle, where they haven’t gone full Reaper and made everything customizable, but they also definitely haven’t gone full Apple and forced everything to work in a very particular way. From my POV, it seems that Steinberg is at a point where it really needs to decide which direction they are going to lean more towards so that they clean up their software a bit and be a bit more obvious about Cubase/Nuendo’s identity.