In Finale I would always create a “Playback File” of every score. This was a separate score with each Percussion instrument on a different staff which I would then balance the volumes of each individual instrument (Triangle, Tambourine, Crash Cymbals, etc.) in NotePerformer. The issues was always that Perc. instruments that shared a staff in the score did not play back at satisfactory levels so I could hear everything. This is happening in Dorico as well (I suppose it is an issue with NotePerformer not playing all Perc, instruments back at levels that could be heard). Should I continue to create a separate “Playback” score and break down each Perc. inst. and set individual levels as before, or is there a way in Dorico to set individual levels for a group if instruments in a given Drum Kit?
Thanks for any help.
I don’t understand how that would solve anything with Dorico : the NotePerformer mixer is available (per instrument) and should help uou balance all the instruments of that instance without the need to double those instruments.
I am not at my computer to check, but I seem to recall that Groove Agent allows you to balance the individual kit components. I appreciate that this does not resolve the issue with NotePerformer, but perhaps another option to explore…
“the NotePerformer mixer is available (per instrument) and should help uou balance all the instruments of that instance without the need to double those instruments.”
[/quote]
marc,
The mixer seems to be available for every wind instrument but only one fader is available for a drum kit even if it consists for multiple instruments. That is my problem. If I have a Bass Drum and a Triangle in a kit, the Bass Drum completely overpowers the Triangle and there seems to be no way to balance the two without setting up separate staves for each for playback purposes.
Thanks.
Gary
Not sure if this helps with Note performer but you can first put all percussion instruments on separate lines with their own dynamics to make them audible and then change the format to a 5 line staff. You will then only see one dynamic in the 5 line notation but the instruments will use the dynamic you entered in the separate lines. (I learned this in this forum from Daniel if I remember correctly)
Yes, this is all correct, and mostly an issue with NotePerformer in terms of how they designed it to consolidate orchestral percussion instruments as much as possible under one channel. Probably for ease and simplification to reduce the amount of faders and midi channels that would be created, especially if you have a huge amount of percussion instruments.
I’m personally a bit fussy about my percussion levels, and I don’t like them being consolidated under one fader because different instruments have different needs. In particular, I find the NP Snare to be extremely quiet compared to other drums, and cymbals, so even using normal dynamics on separate staves presents quite a challenge to get things balanced correctly. But for now, separate lines view is the best approach (as mavros mentions above), which you can then fold back into a normal 5-line staff later. But again, you may have to set unusual extreme dynamics to get the right balance - I’ve sometimes had fff for snare and ppp for a crash cymbal (just to even them out!), which I would show a real player. It would be much easier to have realistic dynamics and adjust in a mixer.
Last year I reached out to Wallander support about this, and they said there will be some changes to this coming in NP 5:
We recognize there are several challenges with dynamics in NotePerformer 4, but much of this will be addressed in NotePerformer 5. In addition, NotePerformer 5 will allow users to customize how NPPE percussion maps to different sounds, as well as set default volume levels. This enhanced flexibility will give you greater control over the Playback Engines compared to the current functionality.
We’re confident these improvements will help resolve the issues you’re experiencing. Please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have any further questions or concerns.
It’s not 100% clear to me if that means we’d have the option to parse percussion instruments out onto separate channels, though, but it seems they are aware of this complaint and looking into addressing how volumes are used with percussion. I would love to see an option in the plugin to manually unconsolidate percussion onto their own channels, regardless of whether I’m using the native NP sounds or with an NPPE.
Wing,
I, too, am VERY particular about balancing all Percussion instruments within a kit. I also understand that setting each instrument in a kit as a separate line would allow me to them change the dynamic markings at various spots for certain instruments and then switch them back to a combined kit. My issue is that even setting extreme dynamics for some instruments in NotePerformer does not do the trick. I often would mark a Triangle part at ffff when using Finale and even tried putting invisible accents on those notes and still the only way I could get them to be heard was to separate the instruments into separate staves and do all of those things and THEN go into NotePerformer and increase the fader for that channel on top of everything else mentioned above. I would hope that eventually there would be a way to set things up so that every instrument within a kit could be set to have it’s own fader. I understand that may not be possible with the way Dorico is set up
Thanks very much.
gary
Yes, I understand the issue. I can only describe what is currently technically possible as a workaround since I have battled this myself, and found that to be the only practical method. I agree it’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing.
The secondary method, when I really need absolute control, is that I will use a secondary non-NP library which I manually add (under the VST tab). I do this often for snares and bass drums, as I’ve been mostly underwhelmed by them within NP, and prefer the sounds I get from other libraries. But I only do this when I have the time and it’s really worth going the extra mile, as it requires a bit more work. I am less inclined to do it when I have a single snare roll in a composition, but if I am working on a piece that is percussion-driven throughout, I think it’s worth the time.
Until then, we can only hope that the NP5 update will bring changes to this. I am not sure the onus in this context is on Dorico, since the way NP works is that it internally assigns multiple percussion instruments to the same channel. I am not sure why their version of the plugin in Finale would do it differently, but if they allow for separate channels I know that Dorico can support it - they just need to add this functionality in the next version.
wing,
Thanks again for the detailed response. I guess the difference is that in Finale there were no “drum kits” per se. So when I would separate all percussion instruments into their own individual staff (this took a little time) then each staff had it’s own channel and I could use the faders to adjust amplitude. The down side of this process was that I had to create a score to represent what it was that I wanted the score to “Look” like and then a copy of that score to represent what I wanted the piece to “Sound” like. This was cumbersome, yes, but it gave me complete control over the balance of every Perc. instrument with both dynamics and faders.
Thanks again for your help on this.
Gary
No problem! I’ve heard that every version of NotePerformer is designed and operates slightly different depending on its host application (Dorico, Finale, Sibelius). I never knew that’s how it was done in Finale, interesting.
If you don’t mind sending a feature request to support@wallanderinstruments.com - this way they can know there’s more people than just me bothering them for such things 
I’m partially kidding, I’m sure others have mentioned it. But I think it can help to hear from more people casting a vote for this development. Fingers crossed for the next release. Cheers!
wing,
Will do, my friend.
Thanks again.
wing,
I sent the attched letter to Wallander Instruments this morning. Jusdt wanted you to know.
Thanks,
Gary
Dear WI Tech. Support,
I am a long time Finale user (34 years) who has recently made the switch to Dorico and am writing to requests that in a future update of NotePerformer that consideration be given to modifying the code such that instruments placed into a drum kit on Dorico be allowed to have individual faders available rather then having just one fader for an entire drum kit.
The Percussion instruments in NP 4 do not always project through at the same dynamic level such that if, say Bass Drum and Triangle happen to be in the same drum kit, the Triangle is virtually invisible as far as amplitude. Even breaking the Percussion staves down into single line instruments and altering the dynamics in that mode is not enough to balance all the various Percussion sounds. I have often marksTriangle and Crash Cymbal parts at ffff with accents and would still have trouble getting the volumes to balance. Individual faders would remedy this and would give users the opportunity to further balance Percussion lines that share a common staff.
As a Percussionist, it is very important to me that all Percussion instruments be heard in the desired dynamic range.
Thank you for your consideration
Kindest regards,
Gary Fagan
Great letter and well said, thanks for sending in your support on the matter!
My first instrument was the drum kit growing up, and I played percussion all throughout grade school! While I do not play professionally as a percussionist and have since focused more on piano and cello, percussion is a huge part of my life and I’m understandably quite particular about it when composing haha. I find it unfortunate how often percussion gets left behind as an afterthought in all kinds of software and virtual instrument libraries (another request I’ve made to NP is to extend techniques to cymbals and such to include scrapes, bows, rubs, and other modern techniques - where typically you’re lucky to have a hit and a roll!). There are areas in Dorico as well which I feel could improved regarding percussion specific requirements, but I am hopeful the next releases of both apps will include some enhancements in this regard. 
Cheers!
I agree with you 100%. While I am not a professional Percussionist I did teach instrumental music for 36 years in the public schools and have played for almost 50 years with the Charlottesville (VA) Band, a community band.
Speaking of Cymbals, I keep hoping there will be a way (if there isn’t already) to have Crash Cymbal note choked. Often at the end of a piece I have the Cr. Cyms. play a note that I would like to have choked rather than ringing on for a second or two after the wind sound stops. I tried marking that last note staccato but it seemed to have no effect. Maybe someday.
Thanks for your note and for your help. For the time being, I am going to make a copy of my original score, then separate each Perc. kit instrument into single line staves, then set up all new players (1 for each Aux. instrument), copy and paste each instrument from the original kit onto the new players staves and then mute the original percussion kits. This way I can set new dynamics for each instrument AND have a fader for each one so I can further fine tune each. This is a little extra work but well worth it in my opinion.
Best
Gary
With NP percussion chokes are observed automatically at the first rest after your note (so if you write a quarter note, NP will stop as soon as the note finishes at the rest). However, there is an issue which I have actually contacted Wallander about, and that is that a quarter note is the shortest possible note value which the cymbals will sound (whether suspended crash or piatti). In other words, if you write an 8th or 16th note, there is no discernable difference and therefore I cannot get it to stop more sharply than a quarter. Therefore it’s hard to do dramatic crash chokes that are really crisp with the rest of the band so to speak.
Also some of the NPPE engines interpret this differently than the others which is odd. If I recall the CinePerc NPPE does not choke this way, and requires a choke symbol to be added. I have made Wallander aware of this and they are looking into it. In the meantime, if you encounter this you can always add a choke symbol above the note (accessed via playing techniques, shift+P, choke) which will add a little apostrophe.
I am attaching a project of a basic suspended cymbal to illustrate more clearly what I mean above.
cymbal NP choke examples.dorico (432.5 KB)
Here is a new question regarding balancing Percussion instruments set up in a drum kit. Here’s the scenario.
- I have my full band score done in the Full Score Layout
- When I play this back, a number of the Aux. instruments are too soft in Perc. II
- In the Snare/Bass Drum staff, the Bass Drum is too loud compared to the Snare Drum.
- I set up a new Layout in Setup Mode of the score and in that score I changed all the Percussion to single line staves.
- Now I can set different dynamic markings for each individual instrument in both kits.
- When I play back the new Layout of the score (called Full Score Playback" am I correct that I am actually hearing the new layout of the score or am I hearing the original Full Score?
- I am changing dynamics in the new Layout (Cr. Cyms. and Triangle now marked ffff) but they don’t seem to be getting louder as I increase the dynamic which makes me wonder if I am still hearing the original Score played back.
Any advice is appreciated.
wing,
This is very interesting. I am really glad you have contacted Wallender about this. I contacted them a while back about the Mark Tree sound. The only Mark Tree sound they have proceeds fro the highest bar down to the lowest on the tree. was looking for an opposing Mark Tree sound that went from low to high but it does not exist currently.
Gary
Yeah, this has bothered me as well. I wish there were a downward gliss, as well as a continuous up/down gliss that would sustain across the length of written notes. As of now it merely plays the same downward sound of the same length regardless. Hopefully they can update that!
Regarding your question above, I typically switch my staves within the same layout (I just go to layout options and switch the percussion staff view back and forth when I need to). I haven’t tried creating separate layouts so I can’t speak to that 100%, but I believe it should be playing the same regardless - it is the same flow of music after all, and the different layouts should just be merely visual only, no difference with playback. Perhaps someone else can confirm that.
wing,
You are probably correct that the playback is the same regardless of the layout. I need to adopt your method for playback and just toggle back ad forth from single line instruments to 5 line staff within the same layout. That seems to make more sense. I guess I was thinking that each layout may play back according to what is notated in that particular layout. I’m thinking not at this point.
Thanks again.
wing,
Well I am trying your method of using the original score and switching back and forth between 5-line Staff and Single Line to try to balance these Percussion parts. It is working pretty well except for a Triangle part in Perc. 2. The darn Triangle sound is so soft that even when I perform the following steps I still can’t hear it.
- Went to Play mode and brought up the NotePerformer mixer and turn the Perc. 2 fader all the way up to 127.
- Went to the score and in Single Line I marked the entire Triangle part ffff
- Then I went in a placed accents on every Triangle note in the piece to try to bring it out more.
Nothing worked. I can make some sounds that are too loud in my opinion, like Bass Drum, softer with no trouble. But I can’t think of a single additional thing to do to get the Triangle to be heard. Everything is as loud as I can make it.
I really hope Wallender will figure out a way so that each instrument in a drum kit can have it’s own fader, although the Triangle sample is so soft I am not sure even that will do the job.