Bar rests from starting a new voice

I have a large piano score, 170 pages. I added one half bar of a new voice Up-stem Voice 2. Now it puts bar rests for dozens of pages before. I can’t get rid of them. Even after I delete the notes they are there. How do you completely obliterate a voice? I thought they are purged when you close and reopen, but no. I have Omit Bar Rests in additional voices off.

More to the point, how to prevent this happening in the first place? It happens whether I turn on or off ‘Starts voice’.

And no, this does not happen in small sample projects.

Try selecting one bar rest, Select More until you get all of them, then either Delete or change them to a different voice.

There’s hundreds.

I just found a pattern. They occur in bars where there is no content except for a hidden note used to space out bars for long notes spanning barlines.

What on earth is causing that?

And how am I going to stop that? I need this other voice else I cant set the score properly. Why does it do this? I could not read anything about this in the manual. And as said, I have turned off the option to show bar rests in other voices.

Dorico 5.0.20. Windows 11 Insider Preview.

What I mean is, use Select More (Cmd-Shift-A) until they’re all selected.

I see.

Well I managed to locate the first one with some effort and made it ‘ends voice immediately’. I had to choose ‘after barline’ and it successfully deletes the others.

The question still stands. What brought this on in the first place, against the rules of the chosen options?

Well now. Here is a sample project that demonstrates this. Observe that the option to show bar rests in other voices is OFF. Its just in the ‘filler’ bars. My large project shows exactly the same behaviour.

spurious bar rests.dorico (472.7 KB)

I know one dare not whisper the word bug here, but I am tempted to! If not a bug, certainly a large time waster unless there is a solution I don’t know about.

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I wonder if it might not help if somewhere down the road Dorico could show these rests in the appropriate voice color. Alternatively Daniel might explain what having them appear in black (if that is the color they are) signifies as well as what can be done to access them for your purposes.

Glad you seem to have found at least a temporary solution.

If you’ve got multiple voices active on the same staff, and depending on your Notation Options for showing bar rests in additional voices, you’ll get bar rests in additional voices.

If you don’t want excess bar rests, keep your voices to the minimum you need per staff. The different shade of blue is telling you that the bar rests belong to a different voice than any other included in your screenshot.

PS if you don’t want to see bar rests in empty bars but still want them to be correctly spaced, you can hide bar rests in the entire layout. You can happily ignore this advice if you know that but you only want hidden bar rests in specific bars, not all bars.

@Lillie_Harris I don’t think you have read my post. Bar rests for other voices is OFF. Most definitely off.
The pattern is that this only occurs on bars that are used as spacers with hidden notes.

It’s not right. I am convinced this is a bug. Please examine the sample project that demonstrates it.

I do keep my voices to the minimum, absolutely. Why would I needlessly add voices? This piece generally has no more than 3 voices in a staff. I don’t think that is a lot.

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I don’t think there’s a bug here.

Even if the second up-stem voice (the purple one) were not present, Dorico would show the bar rests belonging to the first up-stem voice (the light blue one), and they would be pushed outside the staff by the hidden notes in the third space, e.g. like this:

If you don’t want these rests to appear, you’ll need to use Edit > Remove Rests.

When I have the show bar rests in voices turned OFF? And manually remove dozens and dozens going back nearly two hundred pages, many on each page?

This is the last project I do in Dorico if this is the case. That’s just too much. Has already cost me two days of struggle and stress.

If it’s not a bug it’s a defect in usability that is unacceptable, to me, anyway. And it appears to contradict the manual.

My understanding is that the Notation Option applies to additional voices (as included in the option’s wording), meaning that it excludes bar rests in the primary voice, which is usually up-stem voice 1. I’ve made a note to double-check this and revise the wording of the result, which seems to be missing the word “additional”.

Yes, precisely: the option to omit bar rests is for secondary voices. That would be any voice other than the default up-stem voice 1. So ideally you would put your hidden notes in those bars in up-stem voice 1, and that will take care of the problem.

So. I add a couple of notes in a measure with existing Up-stem voice 1 and Down-stem voice 1 as say Up-stem voice 2 and the project blows up hundreds of pages backward with these filler bar rests.

How do I specify what the ‘primary voice’ is? I have never understood this.

You can’t yourself specify what the primary voice is. The primary voice is the first voice on the staff, so almost always that means the voice described in the status bar as Up-stem voice 1 when you select a note.

The practical thing to remember for the purposes of your project is that you need to use Up-stem voice 1 for your hidden notes. Then no additional bar rests will appear in those bars.

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Well now this is good to know. It’s a bit stilted because they are just a hack and not the main voice, but I may learn to live with that.

What if there is only Down-stem voice 1 in a bar which I have often (tied notes from previous bars for example). Is that the the primary voice? Does it qualify as the 'first voice on a staff? Or is that referring to the first notes at the very start of the staff, not the bar?

Yes - the very first note you enter.

Thanks @Janus . A bit weird, as the principal voice is just for filler rests then and what I would consider the main musical voice becomes secondary. I know Dorico voices are not musical voices, but it still feels uncomfortable.

you wouldn’t have this problem if you used the slash region trick to keep spacing as I mentioned in another thread. It might not be a help for this project, but future ones and it might stop you from throwing dorico under the bus :wink:

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I haven’t seen the rest of the project, but do you need bar rests at all?
If not, turn them off from Layout Options > Players > Bar Rests; that way you wouldn’t need the hidden notes for spacing purposes.