BBC SO Template for Vienna Ensemble Pro?

Thanks. I will set this up very soon, and will surely ask you more questions then!

Henrik

@_derBertram hello,
Thank you very much for sharing your work and experience with all of us! :slight_smile:
I would give a small suggestion in order to improve your VE Pro template, and to make it more clear.
You can split your project into Sections / VE Pro instances within a single Server (Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion, Strings), just like in the video below about VE Pro and Iconica. This would make any future changes far more easier and clear. :slight_smile:

I really hope that @John_at_Steinberg will join this conversation and will help us to create properly working BBC SO Pro + VE Pro Templates, especially about dealing with Divisi and Double, Triple, Quadruple Stops/Chords, because this is the most delicate point. Probably for the Stops/Chords some special symbol, or short expression text could be created (which can be then hidden) in order to trigger the needed patches?! But would be better if it’s officially created in the BBC SO Templates available on Dorico’s blog.
It is obvious that Spitfire Audio sampled Triple Orchestra for the BBC SO library. But unfortunately they didn’t provide three flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons, trumpets, trombones as separate solo instruments, nor the four horns. In a DAW those “a3” and “a4” patches are useful in order to save space and they are ok for playing chords in a single Instrument Track, but in Dorico we need them more as separate instruments. We can use the Condensing feature to combine them.
There are small timbral differences from flute to flute; from clarinet to clarinet; from trumpet to trumpet; from horn to horn… and of course the major difference comes from how the different musicians play on the instruments. This will surely will bring even more life and realism to the BBC SO Pro. Probably the Dorico team could discuss this with the guys at Spitfire Audio?! :slight_smile:
We’ll be very thankful to him if he makes the thing more clear, probably with some short video tutorial on this topic. :slight_smile: The rest is easy.

Best wishes,
Thurisaz :slight_smile:

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With BBCSO there are individual instruments in the Core and Pro versions, but not in the Discover orchestra, which mainly has e.g. ‘a3’ or ‘a4’ instruments.

I created the VEPro template for Iconica because if you use Iconica directly in with Dorico it will vastly increase the Dorico file size (Iconica needs to save a lot of data). Using VEPro keeps this separate. I suppose a BBCSO template could also be created, but there are also many other libraries that aren’t mapped at all. Are there lots of people who need this - and has @_derBertram already started?

Also, with the Iconica VEPro mapping I created multiple instances (one for each family) because then it’s easy to find instruments later, and I then mapped everything on to individual channels so that you can control them in the Dorico mixer.

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@John_at_Steinberg hello,
Thank you very much for the reply! :slight_smile:
Well, probably after this 1 month of reduced price of BBCSO Core and Pro many people will be interested in templates for VE Pro. As you know VE Pro allows switching the Projects, or Flows without waiting for the instruments unload and load again. That’s the main reason for us asking about VE Pro template only for BBC SO Pro and Core. Discover is very small and loads very fast.
By the way, if you don’t have enough time to create complete VE Pro template, we could do it ourselves. We need your assistance for the trickiest part, like Divisi, Double, Triple and Quadruple Stops. You could just cover this in a video tutorial.
You already did the biggest amount of work by creating the Expression Maps and the Playback Template. Big Thank you for that! :slight_smile:

Thank you in advance! :slight_smile:

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

I’ll be completely honest, I’d need more details about what you mean about the double / triple etc stops, but glad to help.

John,
Double, triple and quadruple stops are chords played on violin, viola, cello or contrabass by single player. They are not Divisi! :slight_smile:
Here is an example for triple stops on violin:


The double stops can be performed easily in legato, some of the triple stops, too. The biggest problem here is that, the legato articulation in BBC SO is monophonic, here probably we may need to use the Sustain patch which is polyphonic. This makes me think that additional Expression Map entries should be created with some expression text and symbol (for long passages and singular chords) in order to switch from the monophonic samples, to polyphonic.
I hope you may find these details helpful! :slight_smile:

Best regards,
Thurisaz

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Sorry (tired), I presumed that was the technique but I didn’t think the default technique was legato (monophonic), so those techniques should play back as chords using the Sustain patch (unless they have slurs)?
I haven’t tried it though.
Let me know if I’m missing something.

John, no worries, it’s already late at night. :wink:
You are correct! :slight_smile:
The transition from one chord to another could be slurred (valid mainly for double stops, and triple stops). If the intervals are positioned on up to 3 adjacent strings slurs are possible. The Quadruple stops sound a bit arpeggiated, due to the curve between the first and forth strings of the stringed instruments, so, legato transition is theoretically impossible.

UPDATE: About the slurred chords. Probably some collaboration between the Dorico team, and the guys at Spitfire Audio (and other companies) could bring some solution in order to have polyphonic legato playback?! :slight_smile:

Best wishes,
Thurisaz :slight_smile:

As I have already posted above (with pictures), after initial attempts I dont use anymore a multi-instance solution and only use a single instance. For clarity, I use colored group tracks with MIR inserts in the VEP mixer and placeholders in the VEP channel list and accordingly in the Dorico enp point configuration. The main reason for this, however, is that I use the mixer in VEP with the wonderful MIR room (stage simulation) and possibly only audio output tracks in the Dorico / Cubase mixer. (inside the VEP server each instance has its own mixer / MIR stage)

Till now in my experience, this single instance approach is the best, most flexible and creative-friendly approach in order to get involved with the existing computer equipment and with a new, unknown project.

And yes - it has been startet and runs as expected on two computers. I don’t see the problems with the Divisi … because, as I said, my solution with placeholder facilitates flexible assignment and monophonic voices can simply be played (recorded) twice or more times. The individual voices can be assigned to different output ports / channels in Dorico.

greetings
Bertram

Just skimmed the topic so don’t know what’s been answered or not, but I use BBCSO Pro with Ensemble Pro. It was trivially easy to set up, I just took Steinbergs default BBCSO template and switched out a handful of VEP instances instead. I think the only trick is you need to make sure the key switches are the same, with the Spitfire player it’s easy to get a patch set up without any keyswitch. What I did is take the one in the Steinberg BBCSO template, save them all as presets, then load those presets into my VEP patches.

Anyhow let me know if there’s any other questions.

Spitfire have decided not to try and programme legato chords with the BBC orchestras so anything anyone else does is simply a workaround. Same with CSS. VSL, on the other hand do allow legato chords but they most certainly won’t have been sampled the combinations (unless anyone knows to the contrary) but rather must be using some form of crossfade. Spitfire’s solution is to use the “long” patch which is what I do, otherwise I imagine that patch blending within the same channel and/or some sort of slurring might be a way forward for those who wish to experiment. But I would hardly expect John to undertake this kind of thing!

John’s default technique is indeed “long” but I’ve changed this to " legato" with an extra p.t for chords with the strings at any rate for various reasons – it’s an area that still requires experimentation.

As for VEP, I’m going to give it a serious try next time an offer comes around – didn’t have time with the recent sale so I’ll need to leave this part of the discussion to others in the meantime.

I actually purchased VEPro just today after trying out the demo version. It works really well with dorico! Now editing, opening and saving dorico files is as fast as with noteperformer. Only thing I regret is that I didn’t purchase it earlier :slight_smile:

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Trying to reassign John´s Iconica-template to work with my VEPro-instances of BBC SO, but I can´t find the BBC-expression maps anymore. Will they only load if I choose the BBC SO-playback template?
Also, when choosing the BBC-playback template, Dorico loads all the internal BBC VSTs, and I can´t get rid of them.

  1. You’ll find them on the Spitfire Website , somewhere at BBCSO - templates I remember. They will be saved with the blaybackconfig. inside the endpointconf., if you save them - and also of course in your saved project, if it has used them.
  2. Put them on Dorico’s Programm-Settings - playback - vstplugins - blacklist
    Greetings

Thanks.
So, I ´l ll need to load the BBC SO-template in order to get access to the correct expression map?
I don´t want Dorico to load all the indivual BBC-VSTs… I want to only have the VEPro instances loaded, and that they are assigned with the correct maps… Or am I missing something?

A MANUALLY EXPORTED playback template (.pt) contains the expression cards used in the project, note symbols / playback triggers, as well as the plug-in / instrument assignments in binary form.
A playback template used in the Dorico project is automatically saved in the Dorico folder and is a small text file with references to its endpoint configurations. (
.xml)

The endpoint configurations contain the actual data: XMaps, icons and instrument assignments and plug-in status. (different files in an extra folder inside the Dorico folder)

Of course, all of this is always saved with the project as a current copy. Dorico project = 1 file!

The state of the actually used VEP server project or actually the VEP instance is also completely saved in Dorico within the endpoint configuration. However, it is important to decide whether this data is to be used by the server or not. → Extra topic (Naming system of VEP-Server instances)

===========================================
Eine MANUELL EXPORTIERTE Wiedergabe-Vorlage enthält die im Projekt verwendeten Ausdruckskarten, Notensymbole/ Playbacktrigger, sowie die Plugin/Instrument-Zuweisungen in binärer Form. Eine im Dorico-Projekt angewendete Wiedergabevorlage wird im Dorico-Ordner automatisch gesichert und ist eine kleine Textdatei mit Referenzen zu ihren Endpunktkonfigurationen.
Die Endpunktkonfigurationen enthalten die eigentlichen Daten: XMaps, Symbole und Instrumentenzuweisungen und PlugIn-Status.

Natürlich wird das alles immer mit dem Projekt als aktuelle Kopie gesichert. Dorico-Projekt = 1 Datei !

Auch das verwendete VEP-Serverproject bzw. eigentlich die verwendete VEP-Instance wird komplett in Dorico innerhalb der Endpunktkonf. gespeichert.
Hierbei ist jedoch darauf zu achten, ob diese Daten vom Server verwendet werden sollen oder nicht. → Extra Thema

Gruß
Bertram

Yes - you must do this manually inside the endpointconf. of your new generated VEP-Instances (Strings, Winds, …) or only in a single Instance like I do.

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Ok, and how do I get rid of all the old VSTs on the right hand side, after I have assigned all the instruments to the new instances of VEPro?

I have used the BBC SO-template from Spitfire as starting point > added instances of VEPro> reassigned players to VEPro - deleting the BBC VST> they are still there.

I tried to start from scratch, but coldn´t find out how to load in the BBC-maps without also loading all the VSTs with BBC…

They still have to be registered somewhere.
In the old rendering template? This must be removed from Dorico. Your new endpoint configuration must be saved and then added into a new rendering template. Then import or use these in Doriko and/or enter them as a standard template in the program settings.

I tried the BBC SO Core on my mac mini 2018, and I found that the speed of loading all necessary sound patches are much slower comparing to the loading speed of Cinematic Studio Strings in Kontakt Player 6. The system is macOS Big Sur.