Best Workflow for Using Respell After Step Entry in Dorico?

Dorico
1

Hi everyone,

I’ve been step-entering an existing piano part into Dorico. For this project, I’ve been working with someone, and for various reasons, we have been entering the music in reverse. We started with the last 150 measures and have just begun to enter the first 150 measures of the piece.

We’ve noticed that some measures are spelled correctly right after step entry, with only minor adjustments needed. However, in passages with a multitude of notes and/or several closely spaced key changes, there are often many enharmonic spellings that need to be corrected.

We are still learning the program here, but my understanding is that Dorico is doing the best it can during the step-entry process, but since it doesn’t yet know the next note or the musical context that follows, it can’t always choose the most appropriate spelling. Is that correct?

At first, I thought I would simply complete the measure and then Respell as soon as I finished step-entering it. But after reading a bit more about how Dorico’s algorithm may handle notes during enharmonic modulation, I’m thinking it might be more complicated than that.

For example, if there’s a long passage in one key leading into a key change, would it be better to select the last few notes of the previous measure along with the notes in the new key and then run Respell? This way, Dorico gets more context. Likewise, if there are multiple key changes in succession, would it make more sense to select that entire passage, including a few notes from the preceding section, and run Respell on the whole selection of various key changes?

Or is it better to just wait until we’ve completed the entire work from start to finish and then run Respell on the whole piece once Dorico has the full musical context?

The challenge is that many measures are already spelled correctly, so I don’t want to create unnecessary work by respelling sections that are already correct. At this point, we’re getting around 30 measures per session done, and it’s been nice to complete these measures in chunks and move on.

I’m curious what you all think is the best workflow for using Respell in a situation like this. Just when we think we’ve settled on a strategy, we find ourselves second-guessing it. I’m hoping someone can either confirm my understanding of how Dorico handles note spelling or share what workflow you would suggest in this situation to get the best results while minimizing manual correction.

Thank you!

2

There’s a tool that is sometimes more efficient (and quicker) than Respell: the Note Tool Popover (Shift+I).

For example: select the passage and type spell c#maj in the popover.

3

Hi Charles,

What a simple solution, thank you for the speedy reply! It’s great to have another option that we hadn’t tried yet. This actually seems like it may be the way I’d prefer to work with this particular piece: going measure by measure while making corrections as needed. And yes, as you mentioned, it looks like it could be a more efficient and quicker approach than using Respell in this situation. I’ll definitely give it a try.

That said, I’m still curious about the Respell feature and whether I’m understanding correctly how it works and how it’s best used. If Shift+I gets the job done for this situation, that’s great, but I assume there is a reason Respell exists and that it has its own strengths when used in the right context.

Because I’ve spent quite a bit of time experimenting with it and reading about how it works, I’d really like to better understand the intended workflow: when Respell might be the better choice, and how much musical context it needs in order to make the best decisions. I may be overthinking it, but I’d like to understand the tool properly rather than simply avoid it, tempting as that may be.

Thanks again for the suggestion, I really appreciate it!

4

I would suggest inputting all music as first step.
Then in your second step go through it from the beginning and decide, where you want to respell.

I don’t think there are rules how to spell, after all you are writing music for a player. Think what is clearest for the player. If you are one yourself, think about what you would like to read.

5

Thank you for sharing your suggested approach.

I completely agree that, in the end, the spelling has to make the most musical sense for the performer. That’s ultimately the goal, and I’m being very deliberate about that as I enter the music.

What I’m really trying to understand, though, isn’t so much what the correct spelling should be, but how Dorico’s Respell algorithm works and what workflow allows it to produce the best results with the fewest manual adjustments. At the moment, Charles’ suggestion of using Shift+I appears to be the better fit for the way I’m currently working with this particular piece. Even so, Respell obviously exists for a reason, so I’m interested in better understanding when it’s intended to be the preferred tool, how it works, and the best strategy for applying it—how much or how little context it might need before using it, and how others have found it most effective to incorporate into their workflow.

From what I’ve read and observed thus far, it seems that Respell makes its decisions based on musical context. Your suggestion may very well turn out to be the best approach when it comes to using Respell, and that’s exactly the kind of confirmation I’m hoping to gain through others’ experiences. Thank you for sharing.

6

I guess that you are talking about the Respell Notes Automatically function that you can invoke on a selection? If you are not, be aware that this is also a possible way.

7

Yes, that’s exactly the Respell function I was referring to. Sorry if that wasn’t clear in my original post. Thank you for clarifying.

8

Perhaps you should experiment? Notate a passage and see how to tool respells it, using different ranges of notes before/after.

(Personally, I use shift-I, but that does require you to know beforehand what outcome you want to achieve)

9

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, we’ve actually been experimenting with it quite a bit, including trying different amounts of musical context before applying Respell. That’s really what prompted these questions.

We’re still learning the program at this point, so while Shift+I does seem like it may be the better fit for the way we’re currently working through this piece, I’m still interested in learning more about how Respell Automatically works, how it uses musical context, and whether more experienced users have found effective ways to incorporate it into their workflow. I’ll certainly continue experimenting, but I’m also hoping to compare that with other people’s experiences. I’m curious whether there are users who do rely on it regularly, and if so, what kinds of situations they find it most effective in.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

10

They wrote a little bit about it here, maybe that will give you some background: Development diary, part 16 – Dorico

I use Respell Notes Automatically from time to time, but I often find that I don’t get the results I want; mostly I identify a pitch that needs to be changed and then a select a section of music and use for instance Shift+I, gb=fs, that will change all g flats to f sharps. Also a good use for the Shift+I functionality.

11

@charles_piano
This is exactly what I wanted! Thank you so much!

12

If you notice a note is enharmonically incorrect during input, you can go ahead and flip it and then Dorico will consider that forced enharmonic for all future notes input until you leave the input caret. Here’s a brief example:

  1. Here’s what I get by default using MIDI input with my Note Input Options / MIDI Input settings. Not great as Dorico can’t decide between flats and sharps.

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  1. If I go ahead and flip the B to Cb while inputting, then Dorico will consider that when evaluating the spelling of any future pitches. Here I end up with flat spellings from that point onward so I’d only need to manually flip the first A# to Bb if that’s what I wanted:

flats

  1. When I flip the G natural to Fx without leaving the input caret, I end up with all sharp spellings:

sharp

If you notice Dorico is guessing the enharmonic spellings completely wrong, a quick adjustment while inputting can save a bunch of time later on.

13

Unfortunately, this doesn’t match my workflow very well. When I’m copying existing music, I keep my eyes on the original, and use my ears for pitch feedback. I use duration before pitch, and I’m quite fast with that, just occasionally checking if my barlines are still aligned. In many cases, I don’t actually see every note I’ve written until the correction phase. If you’re in a hurry, it’s easy to miss an enharmonic error. Oh well…

14

For anyone who isn’t aware already, this setting is obviously pretty important when copying from an existing transposed score:

nio
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When entering MIDI in transposed pitch with Non-transposing layouts selected, I get this mess in an Alto Sax part:

alto1
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Dorico is correctly calculating that this example is using notes from concert B major, so is transposing them up a major 6th to put the Alto Sax enharmonics in G# major. With Active layout selected, Dorico uses Ab major which is much more easily read by the player:

alto2
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15

@LAE, thank you for the Shift+I flats-to-sharps (and vice versa) method. I’ve been using Alt++ and Alt± to respell individual sharps and flats, so I wasn’t aware of that shortcut. And thank you so much for the link. It was extremely helpful. It confirmed a few things I’d been suspecting and gave me some additional insight into Dorico’s respelling algorithm.

This helps confirm my understanding that Dorico is interpreting the musical context as best it can while entering notes, and that it is natural for it to make some mistakes.

Thank you as well, @FredGUnn, for your helpful insights. Your first example is probably the closest I’ve seen to a viable workflow suggestion, along with what Charles first presented, and it’s also the closest to the workflow I’ve been looking for. It clearly demonstrates how Dorico makes spelling decisions during step entry and how catching an incorrect spelling early can prevent errors from compounding later. So if that’s how the algorithm is designed to work, then it seems like a very effective way to work with it.

That said, I completely agree with @PjotrB too. Quite often I get into a rhythm while step-entering, keep my head down, and focus on getting the notes in as quickly as possible without paying close attention to the spelling until afterward. So I can definitely see both sides.

And thanks for the follow-up, Fred. In this particular case, I’m simply step-entering a piano part note for note, but your point about transposing from an existing transposed score seems like an essential option.

And it does make me curious whether there are any other settings I may have overlooked that affect step entry, automatic respelling, or the Shift+I workflow. I’ll be taking a closer look at those as well.

That’s really why I started this discussion. I’m trying to sort out which issues are due to my own process and which are simply part of the algorithm. It has been incredibly helpful in refining my understanding of how Dorico may be handling note spelling and learning what workflows work best in different situations to minimize manual corrections. I’d love to keep hearing everyone’s suggestions and thoughts that support the approaches already shared. Thank you all.

16

It is also possible to respell while inputting via Option (or Alt) plus minus or Option (or Alt) plus = (actually + but you don’t need the Shift-key). For chords it may be more complex although…

17

Thank you @hendrikjan1