Hi, it seems that in some cases the automatic spacing leaves little place for beams, as is shown in the picture. It is easily adjustable in Engrave mode but it could be improved imo.
There is a setting for this beaming, in LayoutOption (Ctrl-Shift-L) in Note-Spacing there is the setting “Optical spacing for beams between staves” yu might give that a try, makes really a difference.
But remember that you have to keep in mind that LayoutOptions are valid for the layout in the entire project, so this setting might change things in another flow!
Thanks! I will get to try it.
The option is actually working with it.
However I find that it might also causing other spacing problems as is shown in the following picture:
[Option Off (default)]
[Option On]
[Option Off, manually adjusted]
It seems that the automatic adjustment leads to clashes between symbols.
Hi. My feeling when I saw the first post was “ok, this is a case where we’re asked to examine a portion of a thing where the problem is actually on a wider scope”. Please post the whole system, for the solution is probably in the spacing forced by the boundaries of the system. Either insert breaks or change note spacing (and probably space size). It’s kind of useless to tweak other settings if the horizontal fullness percentage is not below 102%.
Ok. See how you’re at 100% in the first case? That means you have very little space (none) for leverage.
You could use note spacing changes if you really need to keep the casting off, so that you could give that first bar a little bit of breathing space, but I would recommend inserting a break after the second bar.
For the second example, I’d recommend you use the note spacing sub mode in Engrave mode to give those cross-staffed notes more space, in order for the flag to be clearly visible. It breaks the regularity of those 32nd notes so it’s not reasonable to expect Dorico to break this rule automatically (and it can be a very bad idea if other instruments play at the same time, so YMMV). Not sure I really answer your question, but somehow, engraving implies taking some human decisions in order for the music to appear as clearly as possible to the reader.
2 Likes
Yeah I know that. I said that it is something that I thought could be improved. I personally know how to tweak the spacing. But that there being more situations Dorico could automatically handle decently would always be better…right? 
(Btw As for the horizontal fullness percentage, it is not everything. I sometimes reach higher than 115% and the system are still not that compact.
What I love most is the compact but clear view in the piano books from the old engrave plates. I really admire what those engravers have done.
)
1 Like
Most of my work is in hymnals. There’s no substitute for manual adjustments. Same thing here. My two cents.
Reduce your note spacing to something like 2 7/8, and that’ll change the fullness indicator. But again, manual spacing will be a necessity. At least until AI renders all of us obselete.
3 Likes
Note spacing changes can make this possible, elegant and efficient. It’s become my #1 tool for compact yet legible engraving.
3 Likes
Most often I set the note spacing rule to 3. Sometimes 3½, sometimes less (for ex. a scherzo in 3/4), but never the default 4.
Yes once again I already know that. I use it a lot. I am used to a lot of the options (there is one for beams between staves I forgot, though. I thought it was in the Engrave options for beams but no I remembered the wrong place and failed to find it). And as dan_kreider said
I am recently working on making Dorico copies of organ pieces by Bach, and in my experience it is far from reaching elegant result, for this kind of scores, by setting note spacing options only. You will do have to spend considerable time working on manually spacing. Not blaming this one, Dorico already does the best among scoring tools.
…seems that we digressed from the main topic. My point of the main post is that there is still place for Dorico getting better at reduce your manual work by fixing some obvious flaws like this one.
If one overfills a system (or even pushes it to 100%), it seems unreasonable to expect Dorico to fix that automatically every time.
1 Like
I agree with you @Tweswend. As good as it is, Dorico’s note spacing could be better. The optical spacing for beams between staves option needs to be applicable on a local level, not just for the entire flow. The note spacing dialogue box could be easier to use. All clashes could be sensed and corrected automatically. And I am sure that eventually it all will work flawlessly.
Dorico’s note spacing is very satisfactory for music more widely spaced than traditional engravings. I think this has become the modern standard. I don’t prefer the wider space myself; I like to have more music on a page and less white space. But Dorico just isn’t designed to cram notes on a line as expertly as plate engravers did. I hear the plea for better tight spacing, but I fear it would require a whole new algorithm.
Dorico’s spacing algorithms are (by design) much better at spacing music more tightly by default than any other application I’ve seen, and it’s possible to get really quite good results simply by reducing the ideal space for a quarter note, either in Layout Options or via a note spacing change. I think the notion that Dorico is only any good at spacing music widely is, to be frank, just plain wrong.
@Tweswend’s original point certainly stands, however: Dorico does not enforce a minimum length for beams between stems in opposing directions, so it is possible for the space between a single beamed pair with each note on the opposite staff to end up with a very narrow beam when the horizontal spacing is under pressure.
When horizontal spacing is under significant pressure, human judgement is needed to produce a completely pleasing result. I’m not sure that a general-purpose algorithm for spacing and justifying music within a fixed width can do much better than what Dorico is able to do right now.
2 Likes
Dear Daniel, I didn’t just say “widely”; I meant at least a bit wider than those maximally dense plate engravings we’ve all seen. Certainly Dorico’s default space of 4 fits that description. I am quite happy with Dorico’s spacing at 3 or even 2½ and very rarely need to adjust individual beats. Your last paragraph above is basically what I was trying to say.