Better than Finale? Bah, humbug

Dorico
1

I’m really sorry. I’ve worked on it, I’ve watched the videos and the tutorials, and hung around the forum. I’ve even paid for a private session with a heavy hitter here.

For so many of the problems that get posted, I have to say “but all I had to do in Finale was…” Dorico’s multiple panels, flyouts, and modes do nothing but add extra steps to almost every process. I can’t see a single, solitary spot where entering or editing notes is quicker or more efficient. I’m sure there are many advanced features that are just the cat’s pajamas for many advanced users, but I DON’T NEED THEM. But the group for whom I do the most work plans to switch, and so I need to learn (at least) the basics. And I can’t reprogram your shortcuts to what I’m used to, because I will be called on to teach the program to new users and converts.

I need help.

1 Like
2

Can you say a bit more about your specific needs, Mike? What kind of music are you working on in Dorico?

1 Like
3

If Mike is still working on the things he often spoke about with Finale, that would probably be Barbershop.

Mike was always a great help on the Finale site; I’m sorry Dorico has not yet appealed to him and hope he becomes more comfortable with it in time.

2 Likes
4

I don’t do anything that uses advanced features either, so we’re in the same boat here.

I began by working carefully through the Dorico First Steps, which you have likely done as well. After doing that, I found I didn’t need much more than the occasional web search for an obscure detail.

I have never yet needed to say

but have often found myself saying, “That’s so easy and intuitive compared to Finale!”

My experience has been the exact opposite. This is likely due in part to the fact that I never was a Finale expert, and did things in more clumsy ways than would have been necessary. However, I attribute any success I’ve had with Dorico almost entirely to the excellent Dorico First Steps tutorial linked above. Have you gone through it?

1 Like
5

I have to agree with Mike.

But given that Finale’s finale is on the horizon I spend an hour a day navigating Dorico’s mysteries and writing things on yellow stickies to surround my screen. I will say one thing though, Dorico’s handling of tablature is pretty slick.

Bill – Finale user since the beginning of time

6

I’m not working on big orchestral scores, neither early or contemporary music. So have no experiences how they work in Dorico. But choral and piano pieces are much easier to write than in Finale thanks to the algorithms what sort out automatically all musical items. No need to position dynamics, slurs, hairpins, etc after inputting them. A year ago I’ve bought Elbsound plug-in for Finale to make the layout more perfect what helped a lot, but even so I needed much more corrections after running Elbsound than I need in Dorico after inputting all items. And this takes all. At least for me.

2 Likes
7

Rarely, if ever, do I use them. Most of the time, I sit in Write (galley view), using popovers and properties. qwerty note entry.

OK, my needs (just now) are for playable parts, rather than publication quality. But over this Christmas period, churning out arrangements for a variety of slightly different ensembles has been simplicity itself, with no complaints and quite a few compliments from the performers.

2 Likes
8

Getting up to speed is frustrating in Dorico, but once you’re there, it’s better than Finale, trust me. When I have to go back to Finale for something I feel like it’s so antiquated now.

7 Likes
9

I don’t understand why you just don’t stick with Finale, then if it works better for you.

After all, there are some engravers who still use SCORE (which uses MS-DOS operating system), many years after the company dissolved after the death of Leland Smith.

Old computers are inexpensive, so you should be able to keep using Finale (on a dedicated machine if necessry) for decades to come.

BTW, I was a Finale user from the beginning (3 digit serial number!) and I have to say that for me, Dorico is a huge improvement, both in quality of output and the time it takes to set scores and parts.

The complexity of the music I often am hired to engrave would probably make your head spin. Everthing was possible in Finale, but appreciably more difficult. Try setting a piece with asynchronous barlines, for example (a technique that goes back to Mozart - see the party scene in Don Giovanni).

It’s a bit annoying to me to read all these posts from (former?) Finale users ranting about how Dorico should work more like Finale (or Sibelius, for that matter). What about those of us who spent months (or years!) learning to adjust our workflows?

My opinion is that you should use whatever tool works best for you whether it is Dorico, Finale, or pencil and paper.

16 Likes
10

Please have a mind for the last part of Wawoodman’s OP:

It doesn’t sound like sticking with Finale is possible for him.

It’s also worth noting that it’s a little silly imply that you either have to take Dorico just as it is and never raise any complaints or issues or you should just reject it all together and stick with Finale on your antiquated, unupdatable computer (I know that’s a pretty big exaggeration of what you actually said, but there is a vibe of this sort across the posts of many Dorico defenders).

I think a more useful perspective is to stand up for the fact that Dorico is a great program and that it does a lot of things better and more efficiently than other engraving programs while also acknowledging that there are many thing that can be improved while Dorico continues to grow (I have a running list of functions that are really challenging to work around that are longstanding requests here in the forum). Both of these things can be true at the same time. There are indeed functions that are trivially easy in other notation programs that are maddening or impossible in Dorico. It is useful for folks coming in from Finale (or Sibelius) to grok that as soon as possible so they can figure out what they actually can do to get the results they want. By the same token there are many things that are much easier to do in Dorico than in other programs.

JW

2 Likes
11

I’m still working on it, but I’m getting better. Sometimes, the hardest part is finding information or figuring out how to do something, but once you find it, it’s manageable. I had the same challenge with Finale, which is really about learning the program. I used Claude AI to help me create a project called “Dorico,” where I compiled all the information I had on Dorico, including transcripts of several videos and my own findings. Now, whenever I need to figure out how to do something, I ask Claude AI within that project, and it provides me with step-by-step instructions, so I don’t have to search for the information again. I find that part incredibly helpful.

1 Like
12

I agree. People have different views and perspectives on Dorico and it’s impossible to say that one is more valid than another.

13

Hi Mike - for years I have been a beneficiary of your advice on the Finale forum, and like you, I am focused on a particular genre. Here’s something that I think got me over the hurdle fast. I brought over one of my pieces via xml, and hammered at it until I got it to look the way I wanted. I spent a lot of time in the layout, typography, and engraving options, which is where a lot of the stuff we like in Finale can be found. At the end of a few weeks, I had one perfect Dorico score…but all my styles and master page templates were where I wanted them. After that, it took me 15 minutes to convert every one of my Finale score to a perfect Dorico score.

Note entry is via keyboard (midi or qwerty, mach nichts) and option arrow up down.

Something else you can do - go hybrid: write/sketch in Finale, then import to Dorico for final production. This leaves the note entry differences out of the way. Dorico will even import your lyrics.

edit: I did hybrid for a while. Now I work just as fast from scratch in Dorico. No need to rush it.

2 Likes
14

A huge “Thank you” to all respondents, both pro and con. I’ll dive back into it, keeping all your helpful advice and suggestions to mind.

11 Likes
15

Mike, I see no reason that you couldn’t change whatever defaults you want in Dorico. It would be a great opportunity to learn more about the program as well as show those that you instruct some of the ins and outs of the program. Once you work out the right approach , I am sure that they would want to use the same approach, at least at first…

16

Were I to teach Dorico to anyone, one of the first things I would do would be to say “change these defaults to this; and add these key shortcuts.”)

17

Of all the conversations I’ve seen since the Finale announcement, this is the best piece of advice IMO. Getting everything to look the way you want takes some time to understand, but it becomes quick once you know your way around and have your templates set up as desired. Note entry is easier to comprehend but takes longer to develop into muscle memory, so expect more of a gradual learning curve.

I think this approach will save you quite a bit of frustration, as well as provide you with a fallback if you’re working against a deadline.

1 Like
18

Hello @wawoodman , welcome on board!
I used Finale in Windows from the beginning until version 24, and then discovered Dorico 2.x Pro (x = 5 I think). I took me about 6 months learning curve to adapt (but it was not full-time, it was more as an amateur musician), and to rethink my work processes, and to make the definitve jump over the river. (At that time, I was mostly working on Bach organ works, because I absolutely wanted neat scores that would fit on A3 pages. And I worked also on stuff like Tchaikovsky Piano concerto 1, that I created in Finale 24.)

So, yes, I sympathize with your struggle.
Yes, Dorico can look as a quite complex program, and is certainly of a very different philosophy than Finale. But once you get the mental switch to this new philosophy, you’ll discover that, indeed, a lot of things become very smooth, and more intuitive than they look today.
Give yourself probably 2-4 months, and patience? And you’ll discover there is a fine community here of fellows who are willing to help you, just because we appreciate also being helped ourselves.

(By the way, it seems you did not answer to @dspreadbury 's question. That answer might however help us to give you better oriented advice.)
Warm greetings, Robrecht

1 Like
19

Daniel, sorry to be so long with specifics. Eighty percent of my work is editing new submissions and updating old charts to the current Barbershop Harmony Society Notation Manual. Nothing particularly special about it, other than specifying fonts and sizes; mostly Finale Maestro and Times New Roman.

I’ve been informed by BHSHQ that we will be switching to Dorico. The initial problem is that we have been using Finale’s default staff size of 96 EVPUs and the music font at 24 points. When I put 24 point music font into Dorico, it’s a little too big. I can’t find a rastral size to match. And, I don’t know (yet) if the decision will be to change our size.

My usual workflow if starting with a barbershop PDF is to run it through SmartScore 64 Pro, correct any recognition errors, and export an XML for import into Finale. Then I’ll add lyrics, articulations, and so forth, and clean up the layout. Here, the final layout is important, and I often need to tweak individual items or staff spacing.

The other 20% is with Choir of the Sound, an 80-voice mixed choir. For them, I’ll scan a chart, go through SmartScore and Finale, and generate part-predominant MP3 learning tracks. Often, I have to add additional staves for splitting out first and second voices. For separating the tracks (as many as 10 of them in a song) I use JW Staff Polyphony. I don’t see an easy way to do this last part in Dorico. Also, Finale’s mixer is smaller and easier (for me) to understand.

So, what am I finding difficult in Dorico? Note entry is simple, just different shortcuts to learn, although I immediately changed the eighth/quarter/half notes to 4-5-6. A problem comes up, though, when I want a half note tied to a quarter, and Dorico insists on changing that to a dotted half. If I wanted a dotted half, I’d enter it. I’m also a bit restricted with the upstem/downstem notes and how they relate to lyrics above and below the staff. Yes, I know how to make it work, but I miss Finale’s layers and verses which seem a lot simpler. Courtesy accidentals and natural signs are also pretty clunky.

Anyway, that’s a start. I will continue to work with Dorico, watching videos and submitting questions to the forum. But sorry, so far I like Finale better. And again, many, many thanks to all of you who took the time to comment and offer suggestions!

20

Finale’s default size for Maestro was 24 points, but Dorico uses 20pt as its default size. If you set music fonts to 20 points (even Finale Maestro!), you should find that things are the right size.

96 EVPU is … 1/3 of an inch, if I remember correctly. (24 points!) There’s no exact rastral size of that value, so you’ll have to enter a Custom Value of 0.0833 inches. (Lots of decimal places – you should feel right at home!)

Screenshot
Screenshot774×252 15.2 KB

Mike, I suspect that once you’ve got a template document set up, then half your woes will be sorted. If you send me a Finale document with what you want, I’ll match it in Dorico.

2 Likes