Bitmeter probleme.

Hi all,

I had a client who said I sent wrong 24bits files. (from a multiple export with SoundBlade).
When I import the file to WL the bitmeter shows me a full 24bits file.
But my client is serious (Sony Music) so I’ve downloaded a plugin from Stillwellaudio, “Bitter”.
Bitter shows me a bad 24bits.
Have you notice this problem too ?

Bitter shows me a bad 24bits

What is bad on the picture you have uploaded?

Bitter shows a 16bits file ans WL a 24bits file, for the same file.

This is for a good 24bits file

In your original picture, there are yet some bits between 16 and 24. Of a reduced amount apparently, but not null, compared to your second picture.
Anyway I am confident about the WaveLab meter, hence the file is truly 24 bit. You should ask your client why he think otherwise.

I see the same thing if I render a 16 bit file to a 24 bit file using just 24 bit dither. But a recipient could justifiably question that if they’re receiving for say MFiT, because you’re not supposed to do that. I think the Stillwell meter probably effectively shows that, and the Wavelab meter doesn’t really.

Hi … I do not use Bitter but, in your image the oversample is red. Does this mean intersample overs?

Maybe client is saying that the file is 24 bit but has failed afclip tool/MFiT or clipping some other codec? This is why they say “wrong 24 bit file”.

I’m just guessing here, but I’m thinking the files were rejected because the noise floor and resolution of your file is only 16-bit - even if the container is 24-bit.

Bitter shows 24-bits as well. The displayed lines are just shorter for the last 8 bits (between 16 and 24). It seems to me that image1.JPG is showing 16-bits of used data within a 24-bit wav… So Wavelab is correct - it’s a 24-bit file, but maybe created from a 16-bit source. Were you trying to create a 24-bit file from a 16-bit source? If so, all 24 bits exist, but the least significant bits (the last 8) are basically empty… You can take any 16-bit file and then render that file to 24-bit. Those last 8 bits may exist, but they contain no useful data. The file may be “technically” a true 24-bit, but the noise floor and resolution of the file is still only 16-bit.

Check your dither settings… You may have accidentally exported with 16-bit dither on, so you may be dithering and truncating to 16-bit somewhere in the chain - even if you are actually rendering your file to 24-bit.

I vaguely remember hearing about a Soundblade bug a long time ago that was something like this (unintentional 16 bit in 24 bit files, usually being made with 24 bit dither) but I think they fixed it a long time ago.

Record labels and places like HDTracks and Apple check for things like this to make sure a 24 bit file is not just basically 16 bits, and from screenshots I’ve seen they use Bitter as one of the tools to do it because it indicates this easily.

Same here. I think the answer is clear…don’t use SoundBlade :slight_smile:

As a third test, maybe you could try the Good Dither plugin by Goodhertz to see what it tells you:
https://goodhertz.co/good-dither

It has a pass-thru mode that lets you just analyze the bit-depth info.

I vote for this sort of indication being added to the Wavelab bitmeter. The Wavelab bitmeter isn’t wrong, but it gives you no indication that a 24 bit file isn’t just 16 bit audio with added 24 bit dither or slight level processing, which is what the end receiver is testing for, because 16 bit audio has been tried to be passed off as 24 bit in the past (when no other source was available) simply by adding 24 bit dither or the like. But the receiver considers this cheating (justifiably), and they’ll reject it even though the Wavelab bitmeter says it’s 24 bit. So I think it would be good to see this sort of indication within Wavelab.

I think the Stillwell method of showing this is much more relevant these days.

I didn’t mean to imply cheating is the case with mikamika’s file. That sounds like a problem with the software. The receiver is also checking for possible problems with that.

+1 - good idea

-Todd

Am I the only one thinking, the WL bit meter is not a static indicator, but shows bits in use at the outer meter areas? It already does what you guys want IMO.

I’m not sure that does what is being asked for here. The outer meters show how many bits were recently in use.

The Bitter meter shows the usage density for each bit. And this is its essential difference to the WL bitmeter.

Hi all,

Yes it was a SoundBlade bug, a 24bits container with a 16Bits master and 24bits dither.
I’m so tired with SB, so many bugs…
Now I’m so happy to work on WL, this is so great, but I’m a beginner :slight_smile:
I had news from Sony (France) they said they now verify all the 24bits files with a Bit-meter like the Stillwellaudio.
I will now verify all my exports with “Bitter” and I agree with bob99, it would be great to have this indicator to the wavelab bitmeter.
Thanks for you help.

Just to be precise, as far as I can tell and as pointed out by PG your original image above does not strictly show a pure 16-bit depth on the Bitter meter, it’s still 24-bit in that image but with little usage density in the lower bits… which probably corresponds with 16-bit audio with TPDF dithering added (or dithering with no noise shaping). So, in this case, you can indeed see what’s going on with more precision in the Bitter meter. However, if you apply 24-bit dither with ultra noise shaping, for example, that would not show up on the Bitter meter in the same way… it would look like a regular 24-bit file! And the same thing if you apply level processing. (Correct me if I’m wrong).

But, yes, agree 100% it would be great to have usage density on the Wavelab meter like the Bitter meter. Overall the Bitter meter display makes a lot of sense. It shows a lot of infomation in a very small space. It also shows the details of what’s going on below 32-bits which is relevant especially now we have a 64-bit Wavelab. So +1 from me for Bob’s request too (it might make a nice feature update for WL10).

P.S. Personally, I like Bitter a lot. It just found a permanent place in my plugin collection! Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

I don’t think you’re wrong Stingray, I think they can look extremely close. But I’ve also found I can see the tell-tale differences if I look at enough examples of real 24 bit files and 24 bit files converted from 16 bit. I think it can range from very subtle to very obvious, but the aberrations are still there in every conversion I’ve seen.
24 BIT.png
16 TO 24 WITH MBIT ULTRA.png
16 TO 24 WITH -0.001 GAIN.png

Now if it could only tell you if your 24 bit WAV file was made from an MP3. Actually, that looks more like a real 24 bit WAV file than any of the others. But the MP3>WAV is pretty easily seen in the Wavelab file spectogram view.

I checked out Goodhertz (thanks Justin) and it displays the bit usage density nearly identically to the Stillwell on the examples in my screenshots. In Wavelab’s defense, I doubt that any other mastering programs have added this sort of display to their bitmeters yet (although I don’t know that for sure. Triumph probably has if it uses Goodhertz), but it’s a really helpful feature that I hope is added. Especially if it’s how the receivers are checking for 24 bit.