Broadway Lites in Notation Mode

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I thought there might be some of you out there curious as to how this all worked out.

The short answer is - IT DIDN’T.

The so called Notation Mode that comes with the Fable Sounds “Broadway LItes” and “Broadway Big-Band” products is a joke. It was created by Fable Sounds as a means to make using what is essentially a product better suited to a live performance compatible with notation software like Dorico, Finale and Sibelius. They state that explicitly on their web site. See https://fablesounds.com/broadway-lites/

In notation mode the Fable Sounds products use an alternative set of key switches to control the various articulations. In process of creating my own expression maps (as advised above by other Dorico users) I tested each of the articulations by manually operating the key switch assigned to that articulation. Roughly half the articulations simply don’t work! Now I realise that not all articulations can be expected to work on all notes (as is the case in the real world with the real instrument), so I tested across the full range of each instrument to see if the missing articulation was hiding away in the upper or lower register somewhere. So when I say an articulation (stated in the user guide to exist) is missing, I mean it was genuinely missing!

The problem seems to have come about when the key switches were reassigned when Fable Sounds created Notation Mode. Some were forgotten and some landed up on top of other key switches that were already setup to do something else. Also, in Notation mode, each instrument is supposedly put back into it’s native range on the keyboard so that when you notate a middle C in your score, say, that’s what you hear being played, instead of one or two octaves up or down (as might be convenient for someone playing live with their right hand while operating key switches with their left).

Unfortunately, despite the user manually specifying that this is how the Fable Sounds products work in Notation Mode, it simply doesn’t work this way, causing instruments to play in the wrong octave. This problem could be solved when creating the expression maps if it were not for the fact that Fable Sounds failure to put the instruments back into their correct range causes collisons between key switches and notes. So you either get an articulation that works, but a hole in the playing range, or no hole without the articulation.

I twice tried to contact them with a list of problems that they need to rectify but I got no response. All I can say is, thank goodness I didn’t fork out for their full “Broadway Big-Band” product. I was going to but, given the totally absence of customer service, I won’t be buying anything further from them.

I trust this thread will serve as a warning to others considering using a Fable Sounds product.

I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience with “Notation Mode”, but it ought to be possible to set up expression maps for the non-notation-focused patches in Broadway Lites, I would have thought?

I think you should be able to use some parts of Broadway Lites (in the regular non-notation mode) in Dorico, but I suspect that many of the articulations may be quite difficult to get working well because of the complexity of their state machine concept. So you might be able to trigger an articulation but then not be able to reset it, for instance. It depends on how much of the library you want to be able to access.

We’re looking at ways of enhancing our own Expression Maps for future versions which we hope will make it easier to use more of the articulations available in libraries like Broadway Lites.

Yes, this is possible. Requires multiple simultaneous key-switches to achieve some of the articulations, but Dorico seems to handle that just fine. This is eventually what I did.

I’m angry though because a) I wasted a lot of time trying to get Notation Mode to work as described in the Broadway Lites manual and b) I got no support from Fable Sounds when I got stuck. For fear of what might happen I will not upgrade to their full “Broadway Big-Band” product. And since I need a decent quality virtual “Big-Band” to inspire my work, I’d rather look elsewhere for one .

I have had great success with Audio Modelling’s “SWAM Strings” (although it took some effort to work out how to white-list them) since they use MIDI control channels to control the various articulations, which I personally find a lot easier to work with. So I am currently looking at purchasing their SWAM Brass which will be released at the end of this month.

You’ve hit the nail on the head Paul. Their Notation Mode was supposed to solve these issues by turning their complex state machine into something more notation friendly, with ONE key-switch (simple ON to enable the desired articulation and OFF to cancel it). None of this business where the ORDER you press the key switches ON and OFF affects the final result.

I guess this is why I am rather more fond of the MIDI CC method. All I do is record the MIDI cc’s in real-time, where I use a Novation Launch Control XL to generate the CC info. I then drop the desired articulation, playing technique or ornament into the score (even though it might not actually control anything). The end result is a recording that my students can listen to, to get an idea of what they are supposed to play when I place the printed music in front of them.

Incidentally, The Launch Control is easy to use and the knobs, buttons and sliders are easy to assign to any articulation I want to control. So all in all I have much higher hopes for the SWAM instruments from Audio Modelling as a means to mock up my scores than I do for the Fable Sounds products.

@GeoffBob Can you share your expression map? @FredGUnn and I both have this library and could benefit from what you’ve accomplished.

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Hi @GeoffBob, did you ever get Notation mode working at all? I can’t even seem to access it within Dorico on Windows 10. With the standalone version of Kontakt I can easily select it after clicking on the Options tab:

When Kontakt is run within Dorico (or VEPro for that matter), clicking the Options tab doesn’t do anything at all:

Chapter 12 of the manual seems relatively straightforward when describing how to set up the keyswitches in Notation mode, but I seem to be stuck at trying to even access Notation mode when using it with Dorico. I sent a support request email to Fable, but was just wondering how you even accessed Notation mode, or if you got any further with this.

Tested a bit more with whether the Options tab is selectable (and thus Notation mode selectable) in the following programs:

Kontakt 6: yes
Dorico 3.5.12: no
Finale 27: yes
Sibelius 2021.2: yes
Vienna Ensemble Pro 7: yes
Vienna Ensemble Pro Server 7: no

This is on Windows 10. I’m curious what is different about Dorico and VEPro Server that the Fable Sounds player isn’t working correctly. I forwarded this to Fable as well.

Could it be that you’re running Kontakt 6 as VST 3 in Dorico and VE Pro Server, and in the other applications (which so far as I know don’t support VST 3 plug-ins, which means they’re going to be in trouble as soon as they want to produce native Apple Silicon versions, since there will never be native VST 2 plug-ins, though that’s another matter altogether) you’re running it as a VST 2 plug-in? And perhaps there’s some difference in how the VST 3 version of Kontakt 6 behaves versus the VST 2 version?

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Umm, I’m not sure and possibly am now even more confused, LOL. If I remove Kontakt.dll from the VST2 folder then neither VEPro or VEPro Server can load Kontakt so I guess they are using the VST2 version??? Their site states VST3 is a supported format so I’m not sure why it would be using VST2 and not finding VST3. Dorico still can run Kontakt without that dll of course because it’s using VST3, but once I removed the Kontakt.dll file then the Broadway Lites player works correctly within Dorico! I can select the Option tab that takes me to the Notation setting.

I’m not quite sure what all this means. After placing the Kontakt VST2 driver back in the folder, I get the same results as before with the Fable player working correctly in VEPro, but not in VEPro Server. I’m not sure why it works correctly in one and not the other. The player now seems to be working fine with Dorico even with VEPro Server running at the same time. I’m not sure why removing the VST2 driver and putting it back would have anything to do with resetting how it works within Dorico, but at least it seems to be working now.

I’ll see if I can get some expression maps working. Obviously Kontakt/Broadway Lites will need to be hosted in Dorico and not in VEPro Server as I don’t think the Notation option will be selectable there.

Perhaps VEP remembers the VTS under which the sound was originally installed and only went searching when the original VST was no longer found. It would certainly help VEP be more stable than if it constantly rescanned for new and perhaps unwanted updates.

Maybe? I did a manual rescan though and it still seems to be using VST2.

My Kontakt VST3 is in the standard location of Program Files\Common Files\VST3 and Dorico doesn’t seem to have any issue with finding it.

I’m going to get back to working on some maps for this today, but I just wanted to mention Fable’s support has been pretty great. They did mention that it is their intention to offer Dorico expression maps themselves in the “near future.”

Hello to all who have contributed to the above thread.
My sincerest apologies apologies for not having seen these messages sooner, but with Covid wreaking havoc in the music industry, I haven’t had much call to frequent this forum. Fortunately I have been able to pay my bills by other means.
FredGUnn, the short answer is, I never did get Fable Sounds’ Broadway Lites working properly. All I can say is, thank goodness I didn’t fork out for the full big band version. Honestly, much of the above thread is a distant memory to me and I haven’t attempted to use Broadway Lites in over a year. I seem to recall that, at the time, I was very impressed by the quality of their samples and the articulations they supposedly supported, but if I can’t use them to arrange music (as opposed to in a live performance) they are of no use to me.
They never did respond to my queries so they can get stuffed as far as I am concerned.
Sorry I can’t be of more help.
Regards
Geoff

I haven’t really thought about this since my last post back in September. The folks at Fable seemed to be working on getting it to be compatible with Dorico so I figured I’d just wait until then.

It’s funny this thread popped back up because I have been playing in a band that includes Rafi Malkiel, the trombonist who was sampled for Broadway Lites, every Sunday at Birdland (jazz club in NYC) for the last month and a half. I mentioned I had purchased it and he said he “that thing? I recorded that ages ago!” LOL!

Hi!
I’ve been looking for it in the black Friday-cyber Monday days… and nothing was on sale. As if the website was just left there. I assumed that this was a kind of legacy software, not worth investing there, although the sounds are nice.

I’ve recently bought Broadway lite and use it in Cubase. Of course I ran into the same problem. I set up the expression maps according to the manual and many of them just don’t work. Eventually I gave up.

Did you ever manage to get some halfway working expression maps for that library? Or did they ever got back to you with their own versions of maps?

I wrote support of Fable Sounds but never got any response. There is also no sign of an update to download, so I guess the answer is no.

It’s a shame because that library sounds really great.

Sorry, I never did manage to get it working and just gave up. It was a year ago that they were promising some kind of update “soon,” but as far as I know it never materialized. If you ever find a way to get it working, please share!

I also bought Fable Sounds Broadway Lites two years ago and couldn’t manage to get it working in Dorico 4. That is a pity, because the sounds are really good. Do the same problems occur with Broadway Big Band (the full version of the VST)?
I’m still looking for good brass and reeds for Bigband-play-alongs and mockups. Does anyone work with the «Straightaheadsamples» Atomic Big Band here? Atomic Big Band Does anybody have other recommendations?

I never got it working. I think the issues that affect Lites also affect the full version too. There was a Build a Big Band Discover Dorico session a month ago where John Barron mentioned that there will be an update from Fable that will hopefully fix the notation mode issues, but it still hasn’t arrived.

I don’t have Atomic Big Band, but it is discussed, along with a lot of other libraries, in this thread if you haven’t seen it. @RobinHoffmann has Atomic BB, so maybe he’ll chime in and offer advice with it if you are interested.