BUG: 6.0.2 - Clicking point in automation lane moves it

lights · May 13, 2011, 9:34pm

Thanks!

lights · May 17, 2011, 5:32am

Ok, guys, since nobody was able to repro it, I produced a 100% repro video and posted it on YouTube. Best viewed in 1080p/full screen if you have the bandwidth.

Follow the mouse. You will see that i show the selected automation point (the output level of Steinberg’s StudioEQ) set to 0.00dB.

Next I click another automation point on the track above.

I return and click the original point and as the lane expands downward automatically, the point is magically changed to -36dB.

I created this repro with the standard Empty project… and you must insert 2 tracks to see the bug (on the lower track).

system · May 17, 2011, 8:53am

i guess this is not a bug, it seems to be their understanding of usability in some way.
if you push the point on the unselected smaller channel → channel blows up and in the same second you have hold the lane point down.
You need to click the channel fist and after then you can adjust the lane point.
Yes, off course it would be fine if you click a lane point and the channel enlarges vertical in a centered position to the courser-click -point… but this would be more complex to programe. I guess they do not see the wood for the trees… or just ticking off wanted feautures and do wait for the next user pressure to “finalize” it.

Solution: Just deselect the option that enlarges tracks on click

JHP · May 17, 2011, 10:56am

Confirmed 28693

lights · May 17, 2011, 12:39pm

Oh for sure this is a bug. If Cubase has the enlarge selected track featue Steinberg should make sure it works. And my projects typically have 50 tracks or more… if i couldn’t work zoomed out but with “enlarge selected track” turned on, I’d be lost. If I wasn’t pressed for time I would have shown you that Steinberg specifically ensure this works properly in other circumstances. They just didn’t think of all cases.

I’m also not sure why you’d say it’s not a bug just because there are workarounds. That’s frustrating that you would place a value judgment on something that is clearly just a fact, simply because it doesn’t affect YOU in YOUR workflow. It IS a bug. And it affects ME in MY workflow. This bug bites me regularly and is annoying and a time-waster.

alexis · May 17, 2011, 1:02pm

Excellent job Lights!

It’s almost unbelievable to me that this problem exists. I am as far from a “power user” as can be possible, but I noticed this bug in the 1st day of working on C6 (I just didn’t have the confidence and persistence of Lights to follow through on it).

That such a basic bug was not detected speaks volumes about quality control before product release.

system · May 17, 2011, 2:22pm

Sorry Lights, my post was irony and i am really sure that this bug bothers you.
Irony is not good in forums, i forget it sometimes…

system · May 17, 2011, 2:24pm

my words

JHP · May 17, 2011, 3:05pm

To avoid missunderstanding I should point out that the repro in the beginning of this thread is not correct and is not reproducible, as CB stated correctly.

The behavior comes from combining two particular preferences that, for several reasons, users rarely use and from using a specific way to select automations points under specific circumstances. In the bugbase I have noted a precise and working repro and of course the obvious workarounds.

As vic pointed out “Track Selection follows Event Selection” must be involved as well.

Workaround:

Select the automation point by drawing a square around it with the object selection tool instead of directly clicking on the point with the object selection tool.
Turn off one or both of the preferences from repro step 1 or 2. The Preferences are “Enlarge Selected Track” and “Track Selection Follows Event Selection”

Thank you all for your constructiveness,
Gr,
JHP

lights · May 17, 2011, 3:14pm

Guys there are plenty of workarounds but I choose to have those very useful options on. And this is a bug, right? Will it be logged and considered?

alexis · May 17, 2011, 3:38pm

JHP:

To avoid missunderstanding I should point out that the repro in the beginning of this thread is not correct and is not reproducible, as CB stated correctly.

The behavior comes from combining two particular preferences that, for several reasons, users rarely use and from using a specific way to select automations points under specific circumstances. In the bugbase I have noted a precise and working repro and of course the obvious workarounds.

As vic pointed out “Track Selection follows Event Selection” must be involved as well.

Workaround:

Select the automation point by drawing a square around it with the object selection tool instead of directly clicking on the point with the object selection tool.

Turn off one or both of the preferences from repro step 1 or 2. The Preferences are “Enlarge Selected Track” and “Track Selection Follows Event Selection”

Thank you all for your constructiveness,
Gr,
JHP

JHP - Thank you for your response. I’m not sure I understand what you are saying - would you please clarify?

The part in red:: Are you saying users rarely use the two preferences you list? They seem very handy, that is surprising to hear. You say for various reasons - what reasons are you thinking of?
…using a specific way to select automation points …. Do you mean the usual way, using the selection tool to select a point?

Thanks -

lights · May 17, 2011, 4:31pm

Thanks Alexis. Couldn’t have said it better myself. That response did seem to be a bit defensive. And you are spot on. Steinberg should just fix this slightly embarrassing and frustrating bug.

system · May 17, 2011, 4:48pm

i think they would be used more if they would work just fine.
I worked with both options ON a while ago and one time i also tryed out only the “Track Selection Follows Event Selection” and i found the idea very cool for soloing while editing and arranging in the sequencer window but it is really nasty realized. I found myself adjusting the wrong eqs cause i just touched an event with the deleting tool or it end up in a very confusing work style that i changed everything i did not want to change in this channel… it was very confusing and i guess “Track Selection Follows Event Selection” could be realized much more better than it is.
Of course i would use it nowdays too if it would act some kind more intelligent. I also would appreciate an option that you can select a track by keycommand after selecting an event. Push on a event, and press for example w to activate the channel of this event. So i could see a use for editing midi notes for vst instruments or just audio → push w and the shortkey to open the eq of this channel. that would make everything very fast too.
there are to much thoughts to improve cubase for a better usability…
But i can understand you Light if you have inured working this way, why should you deselect options for a workaround that changes your workwise 180°

Again: I really belief that just a hand full people use this not well working option. …but in this thread is shown the reason why too

lights · May 17, 2011, 5:01pm

I am guessing that Cubase doesn’t have instrumentation like many products that sends usage data back to their servers. So it would be impossible to say who uses what features at what frequency.

jaslan · May 17, 2011, 5:06pm

And I would also agree that how much people use the feature should not matter. If the feature exists, it should work properly.
Sincerely,
J.L.

JHP · May 18, 2011, 5:11pm

Yes Ok!

I have written that for “several reasons” users “rarely” use the “particular preferences” in my above post.

I am only one user you are asking here. Other individuals of this community may have other reasons why they prefer not to use these prefs. If you are sincerely interested in the fact that these prefs are not used so often you might want to consider also asking them. I can only tell you some obvious reasons as well as tell you my personal reasons for not using these prefs. I cannot tell you what other users think about these prefs.

Here are a couple of potential reasons why users rarely use the particular preferences:

These two particular prefs are off by default.
If the particular preferences are turned on the user must also realize that the standard “Enable Record on Selected Tracks” pref will function in conjunction with these settings. This means that you select an event on another track and the MIDI Track you are preparing to record on gets record disabled just because you maybe wanted to mute a particular event before the recording. If you whish you can of course turn “Enable Record on Selected Tracks” off but will only do so if you are aware of this interdependency. This applies more to musicians that record there music with midi and audio tracks and not so much for musicians that work with manufactured content and midi loop plugins.
There are many zoom commands that provide more zoom possibility then “Enlarge On Selected Tracks”. With a stationary zoom that does not change by turning on “Enlarge on selected tracks” you are more flexible in scaling your tracks to different levels.
The amenities of the users. Ask them…

Personally I do not like to have these prefs turned on myself, as sometimes I like to focus on one track and to be able fiddle around with other tracks and events without loosing this focus. This is not possible with the respective prefs turned on.

On the other hand I could also imagine usacases why one might want to turn on these prefs. Maybe alexis and Lights would like to share there particular workflow with us and explain to this community why the like to have these preferences turned on. I would assume that they have these prefs turned on because both wrote that they are experiencing the bug that is reported in this thread. It is a matter of taste, workflow and usecase if you like to have these prefs turned on or not.

I mean to directly click on the automation point if no other point in the automation lane is selected and the track is also not selected.

Of course Cubase does not quote “have instrumentation like many products that sends usage data back to their servers”. But I cannot recall seeing a video or animated gif around the web with these prefs turned on except for the one you posted in this thread. There are many Cubase videos and gifs out there that have accumulated over the years; I have seen quite a few of them. Also I often see other Cubase users in action and they do not have these prefs on.

There is nothing nasty about these prefs and if you find that there is you should consider to clearly define what exactly you find problematic. The prefs do what they say they do. There is the automation point bug that has plenty workarounds, ok.

The prefs do what they say they do. Requesting “it would act some kind more intelligent” is a vague undefined request to a Cubase preference.

You can come up with a macro that provides the functionality you describe.
Cubase is the best place to find answers and improvements on usability and to work out self satisfying speedy routines.

Here is the macro idea:
Select Track(s) of Selected Event(s) (Assign Keycommand as you which, like for example “w”)

Edit - Invert Selection
Preference - Editing - Track Selection Follows Event Selection
Edit - Invert Selection
Preference - Editing - Track Selection Follows Event Selection

It is one of the workarounds to deselect the prefs he is using. Another one would be to draw a square around the automation point with the object selection tool. Another workaround would be to select the automation lane before you click on one of the points. Another workaround would be to use the cursor button for the point selection.

Lights, if you whish you can outline your workflow and usecase a bit and we could collectively try to come up with some other workarounds or macros that may help you.

With my previous post I wanted to point out some facts around the actual topic of this thread, the bug, and advert to the correct repro and workarounds. Nothing more, nothing less…
I did not expect such sincere interest and colorful inquiry from alexis.

I absolutely agree with you on this Jaslan.

Rock On,
Geetings to all of you,
JHP

lights · May 18, 2011, 5:52pm

JHP:

alexis:

JHP - Thank you for your response. I’m not sure I understand what you are saying - would you please clarify?

Yes Ok!

alexis:

The part in red::Are you saying users rarely use the two preferences you list?

I have written that for “several reasons” users “rarely” use the “particular preferences” in my above post.

alexis:

They seem very handy, that is surprising to hear. You say for various reasons - what reasons are you thinking of?

I am only one user you are asking here. Other individuals of this community may have other reasons why they prefer not to use these prefs. If you are sincerely interested in the fact that these prefs are not used so often you might want to consider also asking them. I can only tell you some obvious reasons as well as tell you my personal reasons for not using these prefs. I cannot tell you what other users think about these prefs.

Here are a couple of potential reasons why users rarely use the particular preferences:

These two particular prefs are off by default.

If the particular preferences are turned on the user must also realize that the standard “Enable Record on Selected Tracks” pref will function in conjunction with these settings. This means that you select an event on another track and the MIDI Track you are preparing to record on gets record disabled just because you maybe wanted to mute a particular event before the recording. If you whish you can of course turn “Enable Record on Selected Tracks” off but will only do so if you are aware of this interdependency. This applies more to musicians that record there music with midi and audio tracks and not so much for musicians that work with manufactured content and midi loop plugins.

There are many zoom commands that provide more zoom possibility then “Enlarge On Selected Tracks”. With a stationary zoom that does not change by turning on “Enlarge on selected tracks” you are more flexible in scaling your tracks to different levels.

The amenities of the users. Ask them…

Personally I do not like to have these prefs turned on myself, as sometimes I like to focus on one track and to be able fiddle around with other tracks and events without loosing this focus. This is not possible with the respective prefs turned on.

On the other hand I could also imagine usacases why one might want to turn on these prefs. Maybe alexis and Lights would like to share there particular workflow with us and explain to this community why the like to have these preferences turned on. I would assume that they have these prefs turned on because both wrote that they are experiencing the bug that is reported in this thread. It is a matter of taste, workflow and usecase if you like to have these prefs turned on or not.

alexis:

…using a specific way to select automation points …. Do you mean the usual way, using the selection tool to select a point?
Thanks -

I mean to directly click on the automation point if no other point in the automation lane is selected and the track is also not selected.

lights:

I am guessing that Cubase doesn’t have instrumentation like many products that sends usage data back to their servers. So it would be impossible to say who uses what features at what frequency.

Of course Cubase does not quote “have instrumentation like many products that sends usage data back to their servers”. But I cannot recall seeing a video or animated gif around the web with these prefs turned on except for the one you posted in this thread. There are many Cubase videos and gifs out there that have accumulated over the years; I have seen quite a few of them. Also I often see other Cubase users in action and they do not have these prefs on.

team714:

i think they would be used more if they would work just fine.
I worked with both options ON a while ago and one time i also tryed out only the “Track Selection Follows Event Selection” and i found the idea very cool for soloing while editing and arranging in the sequencer window but it is really nasty realized.

There is nothing nasty about these prefs and if you find that there is you should consider to clearly define what exactly you find problematic. The prefs do what they say they do. There is the automation point bug that has plenty workarounds, ok.

team714:

I found myself adjusting the wrong eqs cause i just touched an event with the deleting tool or it end up in a very confusing work style that i changed everything i did not want to change in this channel… it was very confusing and i guess “Track Selection Follows Event Selection” could be realized much more better than it is.
Of course i would use it nowdays too if it would act some kind more intelligent.

The prefs do what they say they do. Requesting “it would act some kind more intelligent” is a vague undefined request to a Cubase preference.

team714:

I also would appreciate an option that you can select a track by keycommand after selecting an event. Push on a event, and press for example w to activate the channel of this event. So i could see a use for editing midi notes for vst instruments or just audio → push w and the shortkey to open the eq of this channel. that would make everything very fast too.
there are to much thoughts to improve cubase for a better usability…

You can come up with a macro that provides the functionality you describe.
Cubase is the best place to find answers and improvements on usability and to work out self satisfying speedy routines.

Here is the macro idea:
Select Track(s) of Selected Event(s) (Assign Keycommand as you which, like for example “w”)

Edit - Invert Selection

Preference - Editing - Track Selection Follows Event Selection

Edit - Invert Selection

Preference - Editing - Track Selection Follows Event Selection

team714:

But i can understand you Light if you have inured working this way, why should you deselect options for a workaround that changes your workwise 180°

It is one of the workarounds to deselect the prefs he is using. Another one would be to draw a square around the automation point with the object selection tool. Another workaround would be to select the automation lane before you click on one of the points. Another workaround would be to use the cursor button for the point selection.

Lights, if you whish you can outline your workflow and usecase a bit and we could collectively try to come up with some other workarounds or macros that may help you.

With my previous post I wanted to point out some facts around the actual topic of this thread, the bug, and advert to the correct repro and workarounds. Nothing more, nothing less…
I did not expect such sincere interest and colorful inquiry from alexis.

Jaslan:

And I would also agree that how much people use the feature should not matter. If the feature exists, it should work properly.
Sincerely,
J.L.

I absolutely agree with you on this Jaslan.

Rock On,
Geetings to all of you,
JHP

Wow! I suspect that it woul have taken about the same time to code the fix as to write this response (just kiddin’)

I’ll respond to your last statement–if you agree that a feature that exists in Cubase should work and that this IS in fact a bug, can you at least confirm that it’s logged and will be considered?

Also: I think lacking instrumentation to determine how often a feature is used, you can’t really know that people rarely use the feature, you’re jumping to conclusions. How users use our products can be very surprising. It’s eye-opening to go on site visits and see the product used.

I use the feature because I work with dozens and dozens of tracks and I like to see as many as possible of the project layout, so I zoom vertically way out. When I click on a track, I need it to expand to see and access all of the detail on the track. It’s just convenient to be able to click on any event and have the track expand.

Puma0382 · May 18, 2011, 6:24pm

Do you mean like this…?

lights · May 18, 2011, 7:09pm

Doh! Embarrassed I missed that. I got lost in all of the discussion about it not being important to fix.

alexis · May 19, 2011, 2:21am

lights:

JHP:

alexis:

JHP - Thank you for your response. I’m not sure I understand what you are saying - would you please clarify?

Yes Ok!

alexis:

The part in red::Are you saying users rarely use the two preferences you list?

I have written that for “several reasons” users “rarely” use the “particular preferences” in my above post.

alexis:

They seem very handy, that is surprising to hear. You say for various reasons - what reasons are you thinking of?

I am only one user you are asking here. Other individuals of this community may have other reasons why they prefer not to use these prefs. If you are sincerely interested in the fact that these prefs are not used so often you might want to consider also asking them. I can only tell you some obvious reasons as well as tell you my personal reasons for not using these prefs. I cannot tell you what other users think about these prefs.

Here are a couple of potential reasons why users rarely use the particular preferences:

These two particular prefs are off by default.

If the particular preferences are turned on the user must also realize that the standard “Enable Record on Selected Tracks” pref will function in conjunction with these settings. This means that you select an event on another track and the MIDI Track you are preparing to record on gets record disabled just because you maybe wanted to mute a particular event before the recording. If you whish you can of course turn “Enable Record on Selected Tracks” off but will only do so if you are aware of this interdependency. This applies more to musicians that record there music with midi and audio tracks and not so much for musicians that work with manufactured content and midi loop plugins.

There are many zoom commands that provide more zoom possibility then “Enlarge On Selected Tracks”. With a stationary zoom that does not change by turning on “Enlarge on selected tracks” you are more flexible in scaling your tracks to different levels.

The amenities of the users. Ask them…

Personally I do not like to have these prefs turned on myself, as sometimes I like to focus on one track and to be able fiddle around with other tracks and events without loosing this focus. This is not possible with the respective prefs turned on.

On the other hand I could also imagine usacases why one might want to turn on these prefs. Maybe alexis and Lights would like to share there particular workflow with us and explain to this community why the like to have these preferences turned on. I would assume that they have these prefs turned on because both wrote that they are experiencing the bug that is reported in this thread. It is a matter of taste, workflow and usecase if you like to have these prefs turned on or not.

alexis:

…using a specific way to select automation points …. Do you mean the usual way, using the selection tool to select a point?
Thanks -

I mean to directly click on the automation point if no other point in the automation lane is selected and the track is also not selected.

lights:

I am guessing that Cubase doesn’t have instrumentation like many products that sends usage data back to their servers. So it would be impossible to say who uses what features at what frequency.

Of course Cubase does not quote “have instrumentation like many products that sends usage data back to their servers”. But I cannot recall seeing a video or animated gif around the web with these prefs turned on except for the one you posted in this thread. There are many Cubase videos and gifs out there that have accumulated over the years; I have seen quite a few of them. Also I often see other Cubase users in action and they do not have these prefs on.

team714:

i think they would be used more if they would work just fine.
I worked with both options ON a while ago and one time i also tryed out only the “Track Selection Follows Event Selection” and i found the idea very cool for soloing while editing and arranging in the sequencer window but it is really nasty realized.

There is nothing nasty about these prefs and if you find that there is you should consider to clearly define what exactly you find problematic. The prefs do what they say they do. There is the automation point bug that has plenty workarounds, ok.

team714:

I found myself adjusting the wrong eqs cause i just touched an event with the deleting tool or it end up in a very confusing work style that i changed everything i did not want to change in this channel… it was very confusing and i guess “Track Selection Follows Event Selection” could be realized much more better than it is.
Of course i would use it nowdays too if it would act some kind more intelligent.

The prefs do what they say they do. Requesting “it would act some kind more intelligent” is a vague undefined request to a Cubase preference.

team714:

I also would appreciate an option that you can select a track by keycommand after selecting an event. Push on a event, and press for example w to activate the channel of this event. So i could see a use for editing midi notes for vst instruments or just audio → push w and the shortkey to open the eq of this channel. that would make everything very fast too.
there are to much thoughts to improve cubase for a better usability…

You can come up with a macro that provides the functionality you describe.
Cubase is the best place to find answers and improvements on usability and to work out self satisfying speedy routines.

Here is the macro idea:
Select Track(s) of Selected Event(s) (Assign Keycommand as you which, like for example “w”)

Edit - Invert Selection

Preference - Editing - Track Selection Follows Event Selection

Edit - Invert Selection

Preference - Editing - Track Selection Follows Event Selection

team714:

But i can understand you Light if you have inured working this way, why should you deselect options for a workaround that changes your workwise 180°

It is one of the workarounds to deselect the prefs he is using. Another one would be to draw a square around the automation point with the object selection tool. Another workaround would be to select the automation lane before you click on one of the points. Another workaround would be to use the cursor button for the point selection.

Lights, if you whish you can outline your workflow and usecase a bit and we could collectively try to come up with some other workarounds or macros that may help you.

With my previous post I wanted to point out some facts around the actual topic of this thread, the bug, and advert to the correct repro and workarounds. Nothing more, nothing less…
I did not expect such sincere interest and colorful inquiry from alexis.

Jaslan:

And I would also agree that how much people use the feature should not matter. If the feature exists, it should work properly.
Sincerely,
J.L.

I absolutely agree with you on this Jaslan.

Rock On,
Geetings to all of you,
JHP

Wow! I suspect that it woul have taken about the same time to code the fix as to write this response (just kiddin’)

I’ll respond to your last statement–if you agree that a feature that exists in Cubase should work and that this IS in fact a bug, can you at least confirm that it’s logged and will be considered?

Also: I think lacking instrumentation to determine how often a feature is used, you can’t really know that people rarely use the feature, you’re jumping to conclusions. How users use our products can be very surprising. It’s eye-opening to go on site visits and see the product used.

I use the feature because I work with dozens and dozens of tracks and I like to see as many as possible of the project layout, so I zoom vertically way out. When I click on a track, I need it to expand to see and access all of the detail on the track. It’s just convenient to be able to click on any event and have the track expand.

Yes, JHP, quite the Tome!

I don’t have dozens and dozens of tracks like lights, but I also like to have the track I am working on be enlarged compared to the others - that’s why I use that option.

You asked why i use the other option … “select track when selecting a part on the track”, or however it is worded. I have that activated because before that I found I was changing the previously selected track while working on a different track’s part and not realizing it. So this is a prevention against making errors I might not find out about for many save cycles, or at least until I check on the other track.

Respectfully,