Since I’ve updated to Nuendo 5.5 I found an small but annoying bug with the plugin windows. When I load a plugin that is VST 2 (exactly VST 2.4 - i386, according the plugin information window) and open the plugin window, what appears is not the plugin interface itself, but a window with an small thumbnail of the plugin inside (I attach a screen capture of it).
I have to click in this thumbnail and then the plugin graphic interface opens, but “outside” Nuendo (that is, the mixer disappears, the project windows turns shadowed…) It’s very annoying because it makes everything goes slower. Is there any solution to have the plugin interface appears as before? I’ve a lot of plugins that have not been yet updated to 64 bits or VST 3, but that work very very well.
Thanks.
Configuration: Mac Pro 2 x 2.26 Ghz Quad-Core INtel Xeon. 16 Gb 1066 MHz DDR3 RAM. Mac OSX Snow Leopard 10.6.8.
Nuendo 5.5 (in 64 bits mode).
While I have not seen your particular GUI issue on my system, I do think there is something very wrong / broken with VST 2.4 in the N5 platform- at least in the 64 bit version with 64 bit plugs (I don’t use 32 bit anymore so I can’t comment there). In 5.1 there were a lot of open plugin > white screen (no graphics, just a white box) followed by cascading crash windows. 5.5 appeared to solve a lot of these problems, but just yesterday I saw a 2.4 64 plug from a new developer do the same thing in a mature 5.5 project, yet when I open the plugin in a new project, it works just fine. The apparent randomness of N5 can be unnerving. The obvious suspect is a new dev having a bug in their plugin. Fine, normally I would believe that too, but what I’ve seen is that most 2.4 plugins can crash in N5 no matter who coded them or when they were coded. Which makes me think developers are coding to a spec that is correct in their mind but doesn’t work properly in reality inside of Nuendo. Many developers cannot afford a Nuendo test rig, so they rely on users like us to test for them, or they test with Cubase and assume it will work with Nuendo.
One developer wrote me:
I think Steinberg changed something in their Dialog windows call in the latest Nuendo5 / Cubase 6 builds, what happens is that the “open file” dialog is called and somehow it’s either out of focus or not displayed - yet still active hence the GUI freeze. [This was when 5.1 was latest build]
That developer went in and fixed their plugin with a patch. But not every developer is going to adjust their code to compensate when in their view it has been coded perfectly in accordance with 2.4 specs.
Another highly regarded dev (Voxengo)- when I told him about a preset issue (load preset, fails to adjust plugin GUI controls) with one of their 64 bit 2.4 plugins in 5.5 and missing grayed out controls on the GUI (no problems in 5.1) he replied that it was a Steinberg issue, that he had been able to work with a lot of DAW companies to resolve problems, but that it was not in “Steinberg’s culture” to work with him.
Someone from Steinberg really needs to get on this. VST is fundamental to the Steinberg platform. Not every developer is going to move to version 3; I use version 3 plugins whenever they are available, but 2.4 is the bulk of my workflow as I suspect it is for most users.
When 5 was released Steinberg made an effort to tell us that lines of communication were going to be improved for this release. From my perspective all they did was create a new forum which wiped out a lot of the experienced user base, and the marketing people have largely disappeared as the product has moved into mid life cycle. I see a lot of user threads raising serious and thoughtful issues going unanswered here. We need a senior coder/ project manager to be communicating with us on the forums, not the marketing guys.
I agree with everything you’ve said. And I have to add something: Steinberg should invest a bit more resources on researching and testing the software versions they launch. If I’ve paid +1500 € for a software tool, it’s easy to supose that I use it at work, and that my job, my clients satisfaction and my business rely partly on this software. It’s not serious that a new version needs a hotfix, that is not tested by Steinberg, within a month after the launch date.
Steinberg is perhaps the music and audio company that most “legacy” products has. Recently they have launched a new audio interface (the UR serie). Was it necessary, specially after the short life time of the previous interface line, the MR serie? How many virtual instruments has Steinberg launched and, after a time, left die? I think Steinberg should have a more clear direction to go, take advantage of the goodness of their products and concentrate in making it better and better, what means not only incorporate new functions and tools, but also give a better client support and a better testing protocol before launching every product. We’re users that have paid for a product, not product testers that serve Steinberg to find bugs.
Coming back to the plugin interface issue, is there any solution? I also think it’s a Steinberg issue, specially as they have not notified that VST 2.4 plugins will not be completely supported or integrated in the host.
Now, ask yourself … isn’t it strange that some decade old VST2.x plugins still run perfectly, and that others get “broken” with every new version of Cubase/Nuendo?
Not saying that they don’t make mistakes, but most of the changes are executed perfectly within the VST specs.
Don’t want to start a discussion, and I most certainly don’t voice the opinion of the Devs or The Powers That Be.
It’s just an observation …
Thanks for your input, Fredo, but I’m talking about plugins that work perfectly and have worked perfectly until now. In fact, they still run perfectly, it’s only the graphic interface issue what makes the job a bit slower. They are plugins from PSP and Flux, two companies that I consider that make a very good job. The fact that this issue only happens when I start Nuendo in 64 bit mode makes me think that problem is in the Nuendo side.
All this said, I have to clarify that I believe that Nuendo is, if not the best, one of the best audio software tools in the market. That’s why I’m writing here, because I believe in the goodness of this software and want to continue using it more and more. But, you must agree with me, Steinberg should concentrate its effort in the products that really work and not to scatter with development of products that can’t compete in the market or that are not so necessary and that suppose a research and development effort that put into the minimum the resources for the support of actual products. An example: Steinberg has just launched a new modular controller line. Is it necessary, taking into account all the programing, development, support, integration… job that this will need, and for a controller that works only with Cubase and Nuendo?
Don’t think that all developers have dropped their normal line of work “on mass” on the new controller.
And secondly, any new product is a waste of resources, unless it is exactly what we need. (and don’t have yet)
I don’t think any product sees the market if success isn’t more or less guaranteed by studies and market research.
Look at it from another angle, maybe the sales of these products helps paying for the features us geeks want.
I’m not talking about other developers resources, but Steinberg own resources, that could be employed on the support and better development of the actual products (think about how many years HALion has been undeveloped from version 3) .
I hope you’re right, and that this new controller doesn’t mean the lack of support for other controllers that already exists in the market and that has worked very very well with Nuendo until now.
Yes, I find it very strange that 64 bit plugins that are working fine in 5.0 develop issues in 5.1 and there is no update of the plug to blame it on. Or when 64 bit plugs that are working fine in 5.1 develop issues in 5.5. I’m sure its always the 3rd party plug dev’s fault. Especially when there are so many of them capable of bringing the program down. And when its a Steinberg 3 plugin that causes a problem (say one of the Reverbs), its not Steinberg’s fault, just the company they licensed the plug from.
When the 32 bit VideoEngineDecoder.exe App crashes in a 64 bit instance of Nuendo, when there is no video running, in a music only project, its not Steinberg’s responsibility, its my responsibility to find the 2.4 or 3 VST that is causing the problem. Of course I can never prove its an exact plug causing the problem because it may be something else - I’m not operating at the code level, and the strange thing is in version 5, its harder than ever to reproduce bugs even with strongly suspected plugins; there is a strange random element to the program. The plug will work fine in a new project but go deep in after many saves and blammo. All I can do is observe- with details.
Here are my crash logs from yesterday from a project with 110 audio and midi tracks.
9/21/11
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Nuendo5.exe
Application Version: 5.5.0.345
Application Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Fault Module Name: Nuendo5.exe
Fault Module Version: 5.5.0.345
Fault Module Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00000000010cb565
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: a4c4
Additional Information 2: a4c42b1e402df9aed7615aab881deb58
Additional Information 3: 2fac
Additional Information 4: 2fac8be53418b87a53fd8a77a1e686c4
Video Engine has stopped working.
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: VideoEngineDecoder.exe
Application Version: 1.3.0.20
Application Timestamp: 4e09ec39
Fault Module Name: StackHash_0a9e
Fault Module Version: 0.0.0.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 00000000
Exception Code: c0000096
Exception Offset: 00852252
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 0a9e
Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
Additional Information 3: 0a9e
Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Nuendo5.exe
Application Version: 5.5.0.345
Application Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Fault Module Name: Nuendo5.exe
Fault Module Version: 5.5.0.345
Fault Module Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00000000010cb565
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: a4c4
Additional Information 2: a4c42b1e402df9aed7615aab881deb58
Additional Information 3: 2fac
Additional Information 4: 2fac8be53418b87a53fd8a77a1e686c4
Crash After Removing Unused Medial in Pool and emptying trash in attempt to solve.
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Nuendo5.exe
Application Version: 5.5.0.345
Application Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Fault Module Name: Nuendo5.exe
Fault Module Version: 5.5.0.345
Fault Module Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00000000010cb565
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: a4c4
Additional Information 2: a4c42b1e402df9aed7615aab881deb58
Additional Information 3: 2fac
Additional Information 4: 2fac8be53418b87a53fd8a77a1e686c4
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: VideoEngineDecoder.exe
Application Version: 1.3.0.20
Application Timestamp: 4e09ec39
Fault Module Name: StackHash_0a9e
Fault Module Version: 0.0.0.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 00000000
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 020d3aed
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 0a9e
Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
Additional Information 3: 0a9e
Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
After renaming VideoDecoderEngine.exe to .off
Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Nuendo5.exe
Application Version: 5.5.0.345
Application Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Fault Module Name: Nuendo5.exe
Fault Module Version: 5.5.0.345
Fault Module Timestamp: 4e11ee6e
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 00000000010cb565
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: a4c4
Additional Information 2: a4c42b1e402df9aed7615aab881deb58
Additional Information 3: 2fac
Additional Information 4: 2fac8be53418b87a53fd8a77a1e686c4
Problem w IK Stutter Edit Plug? Seems very suspect, but crash can still happen without it in project, so can’t confirm repro.
Turning DEP off on VideoDecoderEngine.exe does not seem to help.
Its strange that a global company that purports to sell a product to professionals allows a non-employee to moderate a forum, with occasional visits from employees who are in charge of marketing and/or distribution but don’t have their eyeballs on the code and let them speak with apparent authority about what is and what isn’t being fixed. Stranger still that the users have to fight tooth and nail just to get a public confirmation that an issue is being looked at. Stranger still when they have to ask weeks later if there has been any progress.
Its also strange that I can email almost any 3rd party plugin dev that I use and have a conversation with a real person, often the person in charge of or one seat away from the coding. Amazing that small companies find time to do that, but its beyond the ability of a larger firm.
Its strange that Steinberg when responding to a support ticket would tell me not to email them back at the originating email address. Strange that the support agents don’t give you an email address where you can contact them personally. I’m told its normal, but I should not have to put oil in my Porsche every 850 miles, oh wait, wrong forum, sorry.
Steinberg’s support is inadequate for a professional product. All the systems put into place appear designed to minimize customer interaction, NOT solve problems. If your business model cannot support proper customer service, then at least come up with a pay for support program where I and anyone else that uses Nuendo on a daily basis can have access to the person responsible for coding and fixing this thing. A strange thing could happen - you might actually make more money and please your customers, and we could test the program for you on a larger scale than the group who are part of your normal beta group.
I’ve got a film editor coming to the studio tomorrow, do you really think I will have N 5.5 running in the background? Can’t risk it crashing on me in front of him and costing me work.
It would be really strange if every composer and post professional who uses Nuendo on a daily basis started to take logs of all their crashes, made contemporaneous notes of all their work-arounds and troubleshooting, tallied an invoice for all the lost billable hours and filed a class action lawsuit.
That would be very strange. Can you imagine how technical the interrogatories would be? I’m sure a Steinberg senior executive would have no problem answering them. Probably only take a few minutes of their day.
Don’t worry Fredo, I know you don’t want to start a discussion. It is what it is. I’m not looking to you for solutions. I’m talking to the company.
The problem with Steinberg isn’t any one issue, bug, feature that doesn’t work properly etc. Its the whole culture of how things are done. You guys just don’t have it in you to admit you are wrong about something critical, or that maybe the way you do things doesn’t work anymore in a way that serves yours customers best. Just add me to the long list of guys who have raised larger issues with the HOW not the what. Don’t worry, its us, your customers who are the problem. We know it. One of these days maybe you won’t have to deal with us anymore - maybe you can sell MIDI cables under the brand name of HOSED.
Everything you have said gives me the reason when I say that Steinberg should put more effort in their researching team and support area. Coming back to the issue, any help? I started this topi two days ago and, until now, I haven’t received any answer regarding this issue. That’s what I’m talking about when I mention the need of a better support.
What makes good a product is not only its capabilities, functions or design. It’s also have a team of people ready to solve the problems and to attend the clients of this product. Please Steinberg, look and market and you’ll find the answer at the question "why aren’t Steinberg products so well implemented in the market and accepted by the industry as other brands are?
GREAT!! I’ve found another issue related to the same compatibility problem. None of the VST 2.4 (i386) plugins appear in my contextual menu to apply a plugin to a n audio event!!
STEINBERG, COULD YOU AT LEAST HAVE WARNED US ABOUT THIS?
What you are describing to me is not a bug, but the current implementation of 32bit plugs in nuendo 64bit - at least here on mac.
The GUI change you are seeing is the “bridge” to the 32bit plugin. I’m sure I read about it somewhere…
Easy test - bring up nuendo in 32bit mode - and do you see the same behaviour?
As for processing plugins, I believe there is no current implementation for processing 32bit plugs in 64bit nuendo in this way. Yes, it annoyed me as well, but I simply took it as being the “step” needed to move into a “total” 64bit environment.
I miss altiverb (I used to process it a bunch!) and a couple of DDMF plugs that are not yet 64bit. But otherwise, I guess I’m fortunate enough that most of the plugins I use are already 64bit, or have 64bit betas.
The 32bit to 64bit transition has many difficulties - and I think as a professional studio, you should not dive in without looking into what might work / not work on the different systems. Personally, running nuendo in 32bit with a 64bit kernal was a GREAT transition move for me (I was able to run some plugs in 64bit mode by using vienna ensemble pro) but just recently, I have taken the plunge to work in 64bit nuendo, BECAUSE most of the plugs I use are now 64bit.
(I wait patiently for sound toys, UAD (which I’ve basically mothballed anyway), altiverb (coming forever) and for stilwell to come out of beta… oh, and some voxengo…)
As for the GUI issues you described I have also seen these problems, and they are very annoying. I am trying to document exactly what is going on with them (I see probs with DDMF, Voxengo, Stilwell, Nomad, Sonimus and others) - and forwarding it to support.
Would you please be able to document exactly what GUI issues you are having with which plugs? I know its a pain - and I’m going through it as well, but I figure that with more data, sb might be able to figure out where the problems lie quicker.
Onto support - I would also love to see direct communication on the forums. I’ve seen very positive things happen in other companies forums WHEN this action took place - and as much as things are much better here than they were a number of years ago, direct communication is at best patchy.
It is what it is. I’m not looking to you for solutions. I’m talking to the company.
