[CAN-13042] Multi out instrument tracks still broken after disabling PLEASE RESPOND STEINBERG

I’ve read that on VI aswell, pretty skeptical at this point
please do try and let us know!

Gentlemen,
this is Steinberg speaking. No excuses: this needed to be fixed a long time ago. I’ll talk to the team how this could be solved.

Best
Matthias

That is very welcome, Matthias.
Please keep us updated

Hallelujah! Thanks hugely Matthias!

Chiming in to show support for the cause! Thank you Matthias!

I will update to 10 as soon as this thread confirms resolving this. Thanks…

This is the fix I’ve been looking for in every change log of every Cubase update. Hope this can be resolved as it’s driving me crazy.

Thank you Matthias !

I’ve created a small zip file of a .cpr and two track archives to try to help get the problem nailed down by Steinberg. There’s a detailed READ ME of how I got the problem to manifest, and some screen grabs to illustrate.

Note - the .cpr was created in C10 Pro and includes stock plugs from the release, so it won’t work on C9.5 or earlier. I wanted to do this to eliminate the fixes that Steinberg have already done from the equation. I was also able to generate the fault using only Steinberg plugs, but the first failure occured for me with the one third party Track Archive, a Battery 4 .xml.

Interesting that I didn’t get the fault at first, but once the fault first appeared it was then impossible to get rid of. This chimes with my experience all round - on a first round of tests things may well appear fine. But close, restart, come back to it… and like a bad nightmare it will be there waiting for you…

If anyone wants to test to see how it is on their systems, the file is here - https://www.dropbox.com/s/td22vr0kping4fa/CAN%2013042%20test%20material%20GR.zip?dl=0 . Please do read the READ ME though, and don’t forget that first tests may very well be deceptive.

Very happy that this is finally getting some attention. Thanks Matthias!

I’ll make a recap of my experience with track archives as well as a separate description.
I’d say exactly the same issue as disabled tracks internally in handling - something gets out of order - as it does for disabled tracks when restored.

#1. Not creating a good track archive
a) from a fully featured project I save superiordrummer instrument track as track 29, and a group channel for it on track 33 and save those two as selected tracks.
b) as restored you get outputs scrambled order, sometimes not colored as instrument track(red in my case) and a bunch of extra automation lanes which in some cases can be removed, sometimes not. If colored gray they could be removed, if colored red as instrument track - it could not be removed.
c) in some versions of Cubase I also got popup dialog about missing tracks etc when restoring an archive.

#2. Workaround that seem to create ok track archive
a) make a blank project, and just insert superiordrummer and a group channel for it - and save those two, track 1 and 2, as selected tracks.
b) as restored into any project seems to work ok, all named, ordered and colored and no extra automation lanes.

So there seems to be confusion how Cubase handle things and keeping what belongs together in order.

any workarounds I came up with always ended up with the same mess sooner or later
there is no workaround at this point sadly.
even considering all the different ways you can import the track into the project - they all fail with the same exact symptoms

I think you are right - the disabled track issue is worse than track archive in general.
Even more sad it wasn’t taken care of then - it would fix both parts like track archive too.

In the root - it’s the same issue - keeping track of what belongs together and how.
And you get the same symtom slike scrambled order of output and extra automation lanes Cubase does not know what it is.
You don’t want to continue working on a project showing those symptoms - you never know what turns up later when everything is added and saved and stuff.

But I think it’s a good hint - that saving what arbitrary tracks or track neighbours makes a difference in track archive thingy.
Hope you get it sorted - even in 9.5.50 - but I’m leaving Steinberg now, I’m done.

Managed to reproduce the issue from the ground up in 9.5.41 in a few easy steps

1 created a kontakt instrument track with 7 outs, used some instruments from the factory library.
2 put a plugin on each output (soundtoys)
3 duplicated this kontakt instance a few times
4 saved “good” version of the project
5 disabled one istance of kontakt
6 closed/reopened Cubase
7 loaded the project (got the usual cubase error asking me if I want to remove the tracks it cannot connect - deserves discussion too)
8 enabled that instrument track
9 boom - its broken on the first try
10 saved the failed “broken” project

here’s both projects, hopefully this brings us closer to the solution since it was so easy to break it
https://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/fgHujj5R4mI4ypMhQZXo8Q
I hope the devs can compare both versions and find the breaking point

I think we’ve established that one person’s precise experience is not necessarily replicated by someone else. My conviction is that if someone is looking for the bug (or even if they are not), it shouldn’t be very hard to find, however. Closing Cubase and re-opening is an important factor, and if the devs / beta testers haven’t been doing that it would explain a lot.

Well at the very least now they can see how the issue actually looks
But it was so easy to reproduce this time around, I think its definitely connected to closing/reopening cubase and/or some ram/cpu load.
I’d love to try somebody else’s project though, don’t have v10 so cant try yours
It should be triggered in 100% cases across all our machines if we tick all the needed boxes

Hmm, I think that’s looking for something that won’t ever exist. Things don’t behave the same way on my own system two times in a row.

The best we can do is provide all the elements and instructions which should trigger it for everyone given a small amount of tenacity. At this point my feeling is we’ve done enough between us, it’s down to Steinberg.

Ok
We can agree that its pretty easy to reproduce from scratch though

PS I’m sure on my machine any other project in question will inevitably fail. just so happens that I get this issue in 100% of my projects pretty much straight out the door

This time around I managed to break it using track archive export/import only

the link to the projects
https://we.tl/t-rVqWpmtUoY

TEST PROJECT3 - the fresh working “good” project(from my previous post p798193), I exported the track archive xml from this one
TEST PROJECT4 - a new blank project I used to import the xml into. I selected a few tracks from the track archive xml and they loaded broken straightaway. Saved it after the failure obviously

2411 TEST PROJECT3 track archive2.xml - the xml itself.

so a different mehtod but exactly the same outcome

Hello Everybody,
Thank you all so much for your posts and help so far.
Thanks kavinsky for your repro.

Question:
A) Does this repro nail down the problem or are there more related repros to be found?

Request:
Please try to find and posts problem related repros in a style that is examplified by kavinsky. Thus more like a cooking recipe.

Repro:

  1. Create Empty Project
  2. Add Instrument Track “Kontakt 5 8out” (vst2)
  3. Activate all Output for Track (Kontakt 5 8out 01, kt, aux 1[Stereo], aux 2[Stereo], aux 3[Stereo])
  4. Right click track and “Disable Track”
  5. Save Project as “ReproMultiOut”
  6. Close Cubase
  7. Open Cubase
  8. Load Porject “ReproMultiOut”
  9. When asked “Remove tracks that could not be connected” please choose “Cancel”
  10. Right click Instrument Track and “Enable Track”
    Problem: The single outputs of the instruments are ghosts. This is also recognizable as they are missing the little keyboard symbol on the left. (Please also view Screenshots “MultiTrackGhosts” and “MultiTrackReal” for comparison)


Please excuse the discomfort. I will continue to investigate.

Hi JHP - i’ve been discussing this with Matthias. I’m pretty convinced that a watertight repro does not exist - the nature of the problem is slippery. I doubt this repro would fail in all cases.

My belief is the best we can do alongside possible repros is to provide materials and instructions as I did earlier up the page, and I’m told this is being looked at by you folks too. I added a READ ME to illustrate the kinds of activities that increase the probability of failure, these include:

  1. Restarting Cubase (I’ve never had a failure on a new archive or disabled track without at least one restart)
  2. Restarting the OS
  3. Increasing the complexity of the project (though it can fail on just one instrument in a blank instance)
  4. Any activity that has already failed once is much more likely to fail again

The above applies to disabled multitrack tracks and track archives on I believe any version of Cubase from v8 - v10 (probably earlier where the feature was present ie since inception). My layman’s theory is that there are factors unique to each setup at work, possibly including preferences, though a clean slate install will rapidly become buggy again once these features are used.

Hugely grateful for all your ongoing efforts in tracking this down once and for all, and thanks for taking the time to post here to keep us in the loop.