That is very welcome, Matthias.
Please keep us updated
That is very welcome, Matthias.
Hallelujah! Thanks hugely Matthias!
Chiming in to show support for the cause! Thank you Matthias!
I will update to 10 as soon as this thread confirms resolving this. Thanks…
This is the fix I’ve been looking for in every change log of every Cubase update. Hope this can be resolved as it’s driving me crazy.
Thank you Matthias !
I’ve created a small zip file of a .cpr and two track archives to try to help get the problem nailed down by Steinberg. There’s a detailed READ ME of how I got the problem to manifest, and some screen grabs to illustrate.
Note - the .cpr was created in C10 Pro and includes stock plugs from the release, so it won’t work on C9.5 or earlier. I wanted to do this to eliminate the fixes that Steinberg have already done from the equation. I was also able to generate the fault using only Steinberg plugs, but the first failure occured for me with the one third party Track Archive, a Battery 4 .xml.
Interesting that I didn’t get the fault at first, but once the fault first appeared it was then impossible to get rid of. This chimes with my experience all round - on a first round of tests things may well appear fine. But close, restart, come back to it… and like a bad nightmare it will be there waiting for you…
If anyone wants to test to see how it is on their systems, the file is here - https://www.dropbox.com/s/td22vr0kping4fa/CAN%2013042%20test%20material%20GR.zip?dl=0 . Please do read the READ ME though, and don’t forget that first tests may very well be deceptive.
Very happy that this is finally getting some attention. Thanks Matthias!
I’ll make a recap of my experience with track archives as well as a separate description.
I’d say exactly the same issue as disabled tracks internally in handling - something gets out of order - as it does for disabled tracks when restored.
#1. Not creating a good track archive
a) from a fully featured project I save superiordrummer instrument track as track 29, and a group channel for it on track 33 and save those two as selected tracks.
b) as restored you get outputs scrambled order, sometimes not colored as instrument track(red in my case) and a bunch of extra automation lanes which in some cases can be removed, sometimes not. If colored gray they could be removed, if colored red as instrument track - it could not be removed.
c) in some versions of Cubase I also got popup dialog about missing tracks etc when restoring an archive.
#2. Workaround that seem to create ok track archive
a) make a blank project, and just insert superiordrummer and a group channel for it - and save those two, track 1 and 2, as selected tracks.
b) as restored into any project seems to work ok, all named, ordered and colored and no extra automation lanes.
So there seems to be confusion how Cubase handle things and keeping what belongs together in order.
any workarounds I came up with always ended up with the same mess sooner or later
there is no workaround at this point sadly.
even considering all the different ways you can import the track into the project - they all fail with the same exact symptoms
I think you are right - the disabled track issue is worse than track archive in general.
Even more sad it wasn’t taken care of then - it would fix both parts like track archive too.
In the root - it’s the same issue - keeping track of what belongs together and how.
And you get the same symtom slike scrambled order of output and extra automation lanes Cubase does not know what it is.
You don’t want to continue working on a project showing those symptoms - you never know what turns up later when everything is added and saved and stuff.
But I think it’s a good hint - that saving what arbitrary tracks or track neighbours makes a difference in track archive thingy.
Hope you get it sorted - even in 9.5.50 - but I’m leaving Steinberg now, I’m done.
Managed to reproduce the issue from the ground up in 9.5.41 in a few easy steps
1 created a kontakt instrument track with 7 outs, used some instruments from the factory library.
2 put a plugin on each output (soundtoys)
3 duplicated this kontakt instance a few times
4 saved “good” version of the project
5 disabled one istance of kontakt
6 closed/reopened Cubase
7 loaded the project (got the usual cubase error asking me if I want to remove the tracks it cannot connect - deserves discussion too)
8 enabled that instrument track
9 boom - its broken on the first try
10 saved the failed “broken” project
here’s both projects, hopefully this brings us closer to the solution since it was so easy to break it
I hope the devs can compare both versions and find the breaking point
I think we’ve established that one person’s precise experience is not necessarily replicated by someone else. My conviction is that if someone is looking for the bug (or even if they are not), it shouldn’t be very hard to find, however. Closing Cubase and re-opening is an important factor, and if the devs / beta testers haven’t been doing that it would explain a lot.
Well at the very least now they can see how the issue actually looks
But it was so easy to reproduce this time around, I think its definitely connected to closing/reopening cubase and/or some ram/cpu load.
I’d love to try somebody else’s project though, don’t have v10 so cant try yours
It should be triggered in 100% cases across all our machines if we tick all the needed boxes
Hmm, I think that’s looking for something that won’t ever exist. Things don’t behave the same way on my own system two times in a row.
The best we can do is provide all the elements and instructions which should trigger it for everyone given a small amount of tenacity. At this point my feeling is we’ve done enough between us, it’s down to Steinberg.
We can agree that its pretty easy to reproduce from scratch though
PS I’m sure on my machine any other project in question will inevitably fail. just so happens that I get this issue in 100% of my projects pretty much straight out the door
This time around I managed to break it using track archive export/import only
the link to the projects
TEST PROJECT3 - the fresh working “good” project(from my previous post p798193), I exported the track archive xml from this one
TEST PROJECT4 - a new blank project I used to import the xml into. I selected a few tracks from the track archive xml and they loaded broken straightaway. Saved it after the failure obviously
2411 TEST PROJECT3 track archive2.xml - the xml itself.
so a different mehtod but exactly the same outcome
Thank you all so much for your posts and help so far.
Thanks kavinsky for your repro.
A) Does this repro nail down the problem or are there more related repros to be found?
Please try to find and posts problem related repros in a style that is examplified by kavinsky. Thus more like a cooking recipe.
- Create Empty Project
- Add Instrument Track “Kontakt 5 8out” (vst2)
- Activate all Output for Track (Kontakt 5 8out 01, kt, aux 1[Stereo], aux 2[Stereo], aux 3[Stereo])
- Right click track and “Disable Track”
- Save Project as “ReproMultiOut”
- Close Cubase
- Open Cubase
- Load Porject “ReproMultiOut”
- When asked “Remove tracks that could not be connected” please choose “Cancel”
- Right click Instrument Track and “Enable Track”
Problem: The single outputs of the instruments are ghosts. This is also recognizable as they are missing the little keyboard symbol on the left. (Please also view Screenshots “MultiTrackGhosts” and “MultiTrackReal” for comparison)
Please excuse the discomfort. I will continue to investigate.
Hi JHP - i’ve been discussing this with Matthias. I’m pretty convinced that a watertight repro does not exist - the nature of the problem is slippery. I doubt this repro would fail in all cases.
My belief is the best we can do alongside possible repros is to provide materials and instructions as I did earlier up the page, and I’m told this is being looked at by you folks too. I added a READ ME to illustrate the kinds of activities that increase the probability of failure, these include:
- Restarting Cubase (I’ve never had a failure on a new archive or disabled track without at least one restart)
- Restarting the OS
- Increasing the complexity of the project (though it can fail on just one instrument in a blank instance)
- Any activity that has already failed once is much more likely to fail again
The above applies to disabled multitrack tracks and track archives on I believe any version of Cubase from v8 - v10 (probably earlier where the feature was present ie since inception). My layman’s theory is that there are factors unique to each setup at work, possibly including preferences, though a clean slate install will rapidly become buggy again once these features are used.
Hugely grateful for all your ongoing efforts in tracking this down once and for all, and thanks for taking the time to post here to keep us in the loop.
Hey JHP, glad to finally see you here
Just what Guy said, its not as easy as an a+b=c, but its really not that hard to get it following our instructions
Mainly these are the problems:
-greyed out “ghost” outputs (renamed as “synth” outputs in their place)
-duplicated outputs (a visual bug)
-mixed order of the outputs
-the outputs randomly picking up names of neighboring instrument tracks.
The ways of getting the issue:
-import tracks from project
-drag’n’drop from inactive project into active one
All of them lead to the same exact problem.
I have loads of projects manifesting all of the described issues - if that can help
I have projects that are working fine on its own, but its literally impossible to correctly import a particular track out of them.
Anyway if I can assist in any way - let me know.
I’m down for doing more repros though. Will report back here
Thanks for your posts and all of your efforts. This is very helpful.
Often only repros are usefull for the engineers. *.cpr and *.xml and so are much less enlightening.
I found another repro.
- Add “Kontakt 5 16 out” and activate all Outputs
- Add “HALionSonic” and activate all Outputs
- Disable both tracks
- Select both tracks --> File-> Export --> Selected Tracks --> Save as “KonHalDis1”
- Close Project (Before that make sure to remeber the way the track listg looks, maybe make some Screenshots)
- Open Empty Project
- File–> Import Track Archive --> “KonHalDis1”
- Sometimes Problem–> Crash
- Enable both tracks
Problem: The multi outs are dublicated, in the wrong order and there are some ghost tracks
Even if you hide the tracks and show again most of the problems remain
And the search for more repros goes on. Thanks for all your help