I started checking into all this notation software around 2010 when I was composing my 1st Piano Concerto and after paying someone $150 for an hour for him to mainly lecture me about how Sibelius worked before completing roughly 4 measures of arrangement off my handwritten orchestral score. A quick calculation in my mind told me I was better off buying a software program myself. I first got Crescendo which was junk but good for students writing simple piano and duo pieces, nothing for full orchestra. Then in 2012 or so when I started my 2nd Piano Concerto I realized I needed something better so I checked out the Sibelius free trial. It was impossible to navigate the techniques of using the notation function properly and more importantly correcting mistakes. Finale didn’t offer Garritan even then and I had heard some orchestral samples and thought it pretty good. Notion6 was my final choice because it only cost $199, had a pretty easy platform for me to learn and had a pretty good sound–miles ahead of Crescendo. I didn’t start learning about DAW’s until a few years ago and thought the sounds light years ahead of Notion, but learning how to use them proved daunting. I marvel that oldsters like Guy Michelmore pick up all these different DAW software and get adept at them so easily. My main problem is the piano station they use. I write for the full range of the keyboard and these tiny pianos have only about 4 octaves. Plus I couldn’t “play” my concerto into them because I use such weird configurations like what you see below:
J Joe, do you visit the Notion Forum?
I have been trying stuff in Notion as have a few others. Dorico is better suited if you foresee a situation where real players may eventually play your stuff. Notion I think is simpler to navigate as there’s much less stuff you can do, especially with engraving. Notion can export direct to Studio One 4 and back again if you want to use VSTs in a DAW. Here’s a test I did almost 18 months ago:
Very interesting, Wizard. I watched your video and closed my eyes as I listened to Notion, then Studio, then Kontrol. I am embarrassed to admit I couldn’t tell the differences in sound. One sounded just like the others. Is it my ears? Is there a noticeable difference? Maybe I have listened to Notion for so long I have lost powers of discernment far as different audios go, though I can tell the difference between a Sibelius student version rendering of a Tchaikovsky symphony and a Pro Tools one.
Hey Joe,
Sorry, I may have confused you. Yes the Notion / Studio One are all using the same sounds. I composed the piece straight into Notion, then used the ‘Send to Studio One’ (or whatever it’s called in the Menu). What this does is allow you to send either midi or WAV files straight into Studio One from Notion. Once in Studio One, the Presonus Studiolive Series 3 mixing console can be used in CONTROL SURFACE mode to basically be the mixer (the same as the mixing page) in Studio One. It names all the tracks automatically on the desk and allows you to mix using a proper control surface rather than a mouse and editing controller information. I’m hoping a similar system will be adopted by Dorico and Cubase, although it would need some kind of control surface map to be able to use the console. For me, it’s all about how we can integrate live audio with the sampled audio that Dorico can produce, while still thinking for most of the time in ‘dots’ (musical notation).
Yes they’re all using the same, stock Notion sounds. I’ve just had a look for the Notion score and can’t put my hands on it. It was almost 18 months ago and I’ve rebuilt the studio computer a few times since then …maybe I didn’t keep a copy of what was a test piece. I’ll keep looking when I have some more time. I downloaded the NP trial yesterday and tried a few pieces in there (a Suite for Wind Band that I wrote)and it sounded passable. It was definitely better than stock Notion /Dorico sounds if only in the way the playback has more expression. It still sounds ‘fake’ though to anyone in the know. You have to do a lot of work IMHO to make samples sound real, especially where the ear is being fooled by ‘extended techniques’, which can trick the ear because we immediately think. ‘oh I’ve never heard a sample library do that, so it must be real’.
Ohhh…I see that now. Thanks much for clarifying that. So truth is even if I got Studio One it wouldn’t do anything to the “quality” of the sound i.e. make it sound like the Berlin Phil as opposed to the Offbeat Community Orchestra of the Lowlands. It basically just makes the balancing of instruments better. My dream was to find a software with the sound of a live Berlin Phil where I don’t hear all the muddiness that happens with the sonics of the 3rd mov. of my 2nd Concerto. The loud parts sound like mush and I think this is why so many people tell me I should get a better program for it. But if a DAW is basically only going to allow me to balance the music better…but wait a second, when I listen to a Hans Zimmer score for one of his blockbusters is what I am hearing all digitally generated or is that an actually live orchestra? Because if it is the former then I definitely want that program to import my concerto into. It should make it sound like it’s live from the Walt Disney Concert Hall.
When you listen to a Hans Zimmer soundtrack it’s generally a real orchestra but with some samples layered on top. For instance, Hans recorded his own percussion sample libraries and he actually uses them as part of the finished product. Listening to a Hans Zimmer soundtrack (or even a Hans Zimmer live concert) isn’t really comparable to listening to an orchestra playing a traditional concert, though, as classical orchestral concerts are rarely artificially amplified but Hans Zimmer gigs are miked (and selectively amplified).
Not only that, but the Hans Zimmer soundtracks often use insane numbers of performers that would never balance in reality (ex. 40 cellos, 24 french horns). The only reason it does balance is that they record those groups separately and do the mixing magic after the fact. When it is a live concert they have to make certain adjustments to make it work - it is not exactly the same score/forces used for the original recording.
If you want a sample library recorded by the Berlin Phil, you can buy one. The bad news is that the full library costs several thousand dollars. ORCHESTRAL TOOLS
I don’t know anything about Studio One, but you can often get rid of “mud” in the sound by using equalization (EQ) to filter individual instrument sounds to avoid them fighting each other to occupy the same part of the frequency range.
Although this is true and I agree entirely, I find that, more often than not, these types of issues regarding “mud” are often caused by poor orchestration.The better you are at orchestration (and as long as you are writing for something close to a normal orchestra unlike Zimmer), the less you have to use EQ to get the finished product to sound like you intended.
Expanding on Rob’s idea, here is a video comparing the “Out of the Box” audio output of Notion 6, Finale 25, and Dorico 3.5 with the included sounds and in the case of Dorico with Note Performer 3.1.
I started with a musicXML file from a small excerpt of transcription of Mendelssohn’s Violin Concerto I did a number of years ago. I imported it into each of the programs and after adding the appropriate tempo, I exported an audio file. I tried to make these as “apples to apples” as I could so I normalized each file to -6db.
0:17 - Notion 6. This is straight “out of the box”, no tweaking.
0:53 - Finale 25 using the included Garritan Instruments for Finale. This really needed to be tweaked. The panning was adjusted in the Finale mixer and reverb was added to in the Aria player. Finale and Note Performer were misbehaving on my system so I didn’t include it. Finale misbehaving is pretty common for me and this is one of the main reasons I switched to Dorico. The other main reason is that I really like the fine control available with the detailed MIDI editing facilities and the excellent audio mixing options.
1:31 - Dorico “out of the box” using the Halion Sonic SE samples included. No tweaking here.
2:07 - Dorico using the Halion Sonic SE samples included with some minor tweaking (less than 5 minutes). The panning and reverb were adjusted in the Dorico mixer and the levels were tweaked slightly.
2:45 - Dorico “out of the box” using Note Performer 3.1. No tweaking here.
3:23 - Dorico using Note Peformer 3.1 with some minor tweaking (less than 5 minutes). The panning and reverb were adjusted in the Note Performer mixer and the levels were tweaked slightly.
This is an indication of the audio capabilities of each program for traditional orchestral music with the basic sounds included or Note Performer. Much more can be acheived using the extensive MID and audio capabilities in Dorico. Using all three programs to export MIID files into A DAW and using other more extensive (and expensive ) libraries available. This is a very detailed, laborious process but much can be achieved. Notion’s pretty decent integration with Studio One works well. Dorico’s abilities in this area, using expression maps look great, but I haven’t tried them yet.
I hope that some of you will find this interesting or useful.
Thanks Chris for doing that. I left a comment on YouTube. All the renditions failed in my view and highlighted the problem of ‘generic’ playback. The repeated string figure (around a broken chord) tend to just end up mush, the woodwind sustained notes tend to just sound like organ stops without any phrasing and the lead violin is lost in the whole. I know the example was a difficult one to pull off because it highlights the intricacies that make up classical / orchestral music. It also highlights the subtleties in balancing an orchestra both in terms of timbre and amplitude.
As for Joe’s original question, I wonder if there is a market in ‘orchestral simulations’ for people who cannot do their own, much in the same way that people pay for ‘mixing services’ (mixing and mastering). Also worth thinking about is a solution that has been experimented with during this ‘lockdown’ period over on Paul Thompson’s channel. Here, Paul asked the members of the BBC Symphony Orchestra to record to a click-track, their individual parts and he got Jake Jackson to perform a mercurial task of mixing all the separate performances. Might this be the ‘orchestra’ for certain sessions in the future? Musicians would be saved the travelling expenses, could record their parts to suit their itineraries etc. I know it’s not ideal, but I do worry about where a musician’s income is going to come from in the future.
I’m late getting back to the party as I’ve been away for a couple of weeks and am back in town. I tested the sample of Dorico and Notion using the Mendelssohn on a friend and they said the Dorico sounded “thin” while the Notion sounded “fuller” probably because the strings were more muted in the Dorico and louder in the Notion. But otherwise the issue that prompted my OP–can Dorico get pretty close to the Berlin Phil seems to be a resounding “No!”. Someone did a Cubase example for me elsewhere and I was very disappointed in even Cubase which is supposed to be among the better DAW’s. Perhaps what I am looking for cannot be achieved.
To Wizard’s second paragraph, I for one would pay to have an expert on the very best DAW do a “lifelike” audio of my concerto. As an example, I’m willing to pay 3K-5K for an excellent rendition, I’m talking one that is leagues above the samples in that YouTube video. Wizards question, "Would people be willing to pay for a good orchestral simulation, I think the answer is “Yes!” I know someone who used to be on YouTube who wrote a piano concerto like myself who paid UP FRONT about 3 grand for a live performance without an audience of a movement of his concerto. That paid for a ragtag ensemble of about 40 musicians and a pianist and he had to supply the parts. They begged me to get involved but I said no way was I forking over 3 grand up front for something that might not even get off the ground (in London, no less) while I am in Los Angeles. Imagine me trying to take the ringleader to a British small claims court. No, I’d much rather get the equivalent of the Berlin Phil on DG for an equal amount of money.
If you play that Mendelssohn clip with any sample library, you will get pretty much the same (poor) result, because there is nothing in the notation to give any clue “how to play it”. No tempo changes, no dynamic marks, no articulations, no slurs, no nothing. So how is a computer supposed to “know” it isn’t just a 5-finger exercise?
Of course almost every human player will recognise the piece, has heard it many times before, and therefore knows “how it goes” without being told. Even if they don’t know it and are sight reading it, they know it’s a concerto, the soloist will have prepared it beforehand, so they will listen and copy - and the second play through will probably sound a lot better than the first one.
On the other hand, if you give NotePerformer a page of say Wagner or Mahler, with dynamics and articulations on almost every note, the results will sound a lot more lifelike. Look at the level of detail in a score like this compared with the Mendelssohn. That is the from first published edition of “Rheingold,” not something specially marked up because “computers are dumb”.
Yes, I agree with the basic premise of your post, Rob. The BP, having played the Tchaikovsky 5th a thousand times, knows the sound and could probably therefore play it without a conductor. A good DAW, on the other hand, could probably achieve the same results with my concerto depending on the level of detail a good sound tech put into it, again depending on how well he “knows” the sound of the concerto. Since I am intimate with it and know its every nuance I could probably do a spectacular job recreating the BP if the DAW sound library was that realistic. But I am old and my learning curve for something as complex as Pro Tools et al is simply not there anymore, hence my wish to just turn the job over to someone who knew the concerto as intimately as I do and could achieve something that sounded just like the BP.
) libraries available. This is a very detailed, laborious process but much can be achieved. Notion’s pretty decent integration with Studio One works well. Dorico’s abilities in this area, using expression maps look great, but I haven’t tried them yet.
about 3 grand for a live performance without an audience of a movement of his concerto. That paid for a ragtag ensemble of about 40 musicians and a pianist and he had to supply the parts. They begged me to get involved but I said no way was I forking over 3 grand up front for something that might not even get off the ground (in London, no less) while I am in Los Angeles. Imagine me trying to take the ringleader to a British small claims court. No, I’d much rather get the equivalent of the Berlin Phil on DG for an equal amount of money.