Can't figure out how to use Instrument Tracks with Multi Outs and Midi / Audio Channels

[theMidiTamer]

Hi there,

I created an Instrument Track (HALion 7), and really want to use its multi timbral capacity by loading 8 or 16 instruments within the plugin. Cubase creates one audio channel for every extra Output I activate on HALion, and in order to play the instrument assigned to the extra Output I need to create a MIDI track assigned to the specific MIDI channel routed to that Output.

All fine, but from Cubase project window only the original Instrument Track automatically select the correct audio channel (I don’t need the MIDI channel, so it’s been hidden in my mix console), while the MIDI track doesn’t, and that can be very frustrating during mixing, especially when there are many tracks involved or building templates.

Here’s a video of what I mean, as you can see everything is routed correctly, but I can’t manage to have the Out 2 highlighted when playing the second instrument.

Am I missing something? Any solution for this?

[dreikelvin]

I don’t think there is any other way than to do the organizing by yourself - maybe rightaway when you create your song template.

You can make a folder for every midi channel and then put a midi track and the associated audio track in there.

What also helps is just keeping a well thought-out naming and coloring system. Which I almost never do haha.

And honestly at this point, I have given up on trying to use my plugins multi-timbrally since there is almost no difference performance-wise compared to running it all in individual instances. But that’s just a question of preference I guess.

Maybe the reason that it’s a bit fiddly is that we’ve shifted away from using VST’s like a rack unit towards a more single-instance workflow.

[theMidiTamer]

Thanks for chiming in!

Those are great advices indeed. But I simply wanted to the right audio channel was selected in Mix Console when the Midi Track is selected in the Project Window - just like it’s already happening with the single Instrument Track (since I’m using it).

Also, I wanted to add that this found solution doesn’t work for me, apparently (I have had that option enabled by default): Selecting vsti track in project window does not show corresponding mixer channel - #8 by Anodyne_Havoc

[Martin.Jirsak]

Hi,

If you select the correct Audio Return Channel in the Channel part of the Project window (on the left side from the Inspector), you can see the correct fader (and Insert and Sends slots) in the Channel section, once you select the MIDI Track.

[theMidiTamer]

Thanks for your reply Martin.

Sure the sidebar works as intended, but that is another thing. Mix Console does still not highlighting / selecting the channel though, despite it reflects the things happening in the Sidebar (see the fader movements).

During mixing sessions, I do use Mix Console way more extensively than the single Sidebar, and being able to have channels synced with tracks immediately / automatically is just perfect.

I also want to point out that when selecting the channels from Mix Console, both the Inspector and the Sidebar get empty. Something is not working optimally here. (see the video at around 00:10)

No to mention that I do use SSL controllers (eg. UF8) and the Mix Console problem reflects on them as well, of course.

It really feels like a discrepancy in how the Instrument Track is designed, which discourages to use multi-timbral plugins (Halion, Kontakt, Falcon, UVI Workstation, Stylus, etc.) the way they’re intended to be used (with Multis, Performances, etc.).

It feels easier and more convenient to create single Instrument Tracks for each patch loaded, but it’s a shame for who wanted to create / save / load Multis, Performances, etc. and load multiple banks of sounds (again, think of big sessions with 100 tracks). Also, opening a single instance to edit multiple patches would be way faster.

[Martin.Jirsak]

Hi,

If I understand it correctly, you want to:

• If a MIDI Track is selected in the Project window
• And the MIDI Track is routed to an Instrument
  → Select the assigned Audio Return Channel in the MixConsole instead of the MIDI Track.

Am I right?

[theMidiTamer]

Precisely, that is what I would expect.

The Instrument Track made possible to have a Midi Track appearing as an Audio Channel in Cubase’s mixing console. I think we should have this kind of ‘connection’ between Midi and Audio for the extra outputs belonging to the same Instrument Track as well.

[raino]

@theMidiTamer

I think we should have this kind of ‘connection’ between Midi and Audio for the extra outputs belonging to the same Instrument Track as well.

Well the Instrument Track was basically invented to get around the impact from having the MIDI & Audio not being integrated and the extra work required deal with it. This occurs whenever you use MIDI Tracks. This is independent of the sound getting generated by a Rack or Track Instrument.

On the surface your request seems reasonable. But digging deeper it is kind of unworkable. Your request makes sense because of the way you have specifically configured your Project. In your setup you have a one to one match between a MIDI Track and a VSTi’s Audio Output - each MIDI Track generates Audio on one and only one Output. But the relationship between MIDI Tracks & Audio Outputs can be much more complex. You could have one MIDI Track that produces Audio on 6 different Outputs. Or 4 MIDI Tracks who’s Audio all comes out of one Audio Output. To further complicate things all those MIDI to Audio relationships are defined internal to the VSTi where Cubase can’t see it.

@theMidiTamer

Cubase creates one audio channel for every extra Output I activate on HALion, and in order to play the instrument assigned to the extra Output I need to create a MIDI track assigned to the specific MIDI channel routed to that Output.

This isn’t correct. You can access all of a VSTi’s Outputs, have them all playing different stuff and only use an Instrument Track with no additional MIDI Tracks needed. Just set the Instrument Tracks MIDI playback Channel to “Any” and then use each Note’s Channel setting to determine what instrument plays it.

[MrSoundman]

@theMidiTamer

I created an Instrument Track (HALion 7), and really want to use its multi timbral capacity by loading 8 or 16 instruments within the plugin

I’d strongly suggest using HALion as a rack instrument and just activating the additional outputs, then hiding the MIDI channels in the console. This “old skool” method gets you exactly what you want.

“Instrument Tracks” were a later feature added to supposedly simplify usage, but in the case of multi-timbral VSTis, IMHO they do the exact opposite.

[GlennO]

Another thing to consider:

In the case where you’re using a multi-timbral instrument, but treating the timbres as individual instruments, i.e. each midi input channel goes to only one timbre, you’re usually better off treating the VI as a mono-timbral instrument. In other words, create an instrument track for each timbre and put a separate instance of the VI (with only one timbre loaded into each one) on each track.

That way you get the benefits of the simple correlation between midi input and audio output that you’re asking for. Not only that, there are some performance advantages related to cpu core load balancing.

In cases where you take advantage of mutitimbrality by using features like keyboard splits or stacks, sure, it makes sense to use VI’s multitimbrally, but otherwise it’s often better to use them monotimbrally.

[theMidiTamer]

@raino @MrSoundman

Thanks for all the suggestions. I’ve been using Cubase since the SX era, and am perfectly aware of using Midi Tracks to control mono and multi-timbral virtual instruments (and hardware instruments as well), been doing that for ages.

Once I started using the Instrument Track (very late, to be honest) I immediately saw the benefits of this kind of track, especially when handling complex projects.

Now that I have a confirmation that it’s not really possible to make it work the way I was thinking it should (and I’m surprised this was never brought up before), I think this might be a big missed chance… this thread can be considered as a “feature request”.

I don’t think I’ll go back using the old method of a Midi Track assigned to a VST output channel, I still have old projects laid out that way and the fact I can’t quickly locate the audio channel assigned to the Midi Track in my Project Window with just one click, feels ridiculously tedious now.

@GlennO

This will most likely be the way I’ll work for now, one Instrument Track = one plugin instance.

But as I said before, it’s a shame for who wanted to create / save / load Multis, Performances, etc. and load multiple banks of sounds in one instance (again, think of big sessions with 100 tracks).

Also, opening a single instance to edit a group of patches would be faster (not talking about CPU, but that small delay when the GUI of a plugin gets opened and closed after a mouse click). Having a bank of specific instruments in a single instance and being able is very useful, especially for templates. Think of having one dedicated HALion or Kontakt instance for orchestral instruments, one for ethnic instruments, one for percussions, etc. that you can insert or remove from the project with few clicks, versus having literally dozens of plugins instances. That does take more time even when opening and closing a project.

But let’s not digress, I think we all know the differences between mono and multi timbral instruments and the different use cases.

[dreikelvin]

While I am also in the “mono-timbral” camp, I have absolute respect for my fellow colleagues who are coming from a more traditional way of producing and have simply found their own methods to put out great material. If a workflow just works for you, there is no reason to completely abandon it.

Ideally, what would be the easiest fix here is a way to simply create an assignment or “link” between the channel that is displayed when selecting the appropriate channel instrument of the multi-timbral instance. This could be integrated easily into the “Channel” tab/panel @Martin.Jirsak has pointed out earlier.

In fact, this could become handy if you have other midi-only tracks somewhere in your project and you could easily assign them to a channel (probably a recorded or rendered-out version of that midi) so you can keep it more organized.

With my projects exceeding the 100+ instruments/audio layers amount, I can absolutely understand this sentiment.

[GlennO]

@theMidiTamer

Also, opening a single instance to edit a group of patches would be faster (not talking about CPU, but that small delay when the GUI of a plugin gets opened and closed after a mouse click). Having a bank of specific instruments in a single instance and being able is very useful, especially for templates. Think of having one dedicated HALion or Kontakt instance for orchestral instruments, one for ethnic instruments, one for percussions, etc. that you can insert or remove from the project with few clicks, versus having literally dozens of plugins instances. That does take more time even when opening and closing a project.

I see, that makes sense. Another way to achieve the quick one click switch between patch editors would be if Steinberg would implement the long standing request of a single shared VI plugin window that follows the track selection.

Regarding loading several patches in one go, you could use multitrack presets, no?

Thanks for using Stylus!

[az_spunky]

Load HALion as a Rack Instrument, and enable all outs. Then, in HALion, you route each instrument slot to the outs on the mix tab. You can save that setup in HAlion so you don’t have to do it every time. Once you’re set up like this, all the mixing is on the mixboard. You’re right about the need to set up separate MIDI channels, that’s what enabled you to select each instrument from the mix board. Anyway, as others have said, Instrument Track is really intended for a single soft synth.

[GlennO]

Using Rack Instruments was already mentioned above, but I don’t think that’s what he’s looking for. I believe he wants the convenience of combined midi and audio channels you find in instrument tracks, but for a multi-timbral instrument.

As was explained above, strictly speaking, that’s not possible since Cubase has no knowledge of how a midi channel is connected to an audio output.

The only solution is to use the multi-timbral instrument as mono-timbral and use multiple instrument tracks. For a variety of reasons, that’s usually better than using the instrument multi-timbrally anyway.

There are situations where using a rack instrument makes sense (although those situations are pretty rare these days), but this isn’t one of them.

[Martin.Jirsak]

Hi,

@az_spunky

Instrument Track is really intended for a single soft synth.

Not at all. You can use it the very same way as the Rack Instrument. You can route other MIDI Tracks to the Instrument Track and you can enable the Multi-outs to get the Audio Return Channels the very same way, as you can do with the Rack Instrument.

The only limitation is, there are no MIDI Sends on the Instrument Track.

[cubic13]

Sorry, Martin, but let’s be very practical…

I have added, on an already existing Halion Sonic 7 instrument track, two output busses to it, with the right zone > VSTi panel.

• First issue : I have this, displayed in the arrange view : where are my three HS7 output busses ? At first, I thought that there could be a visibility issue, but nope… The added output busses do not even appear in the Visibility panel list, though they appear as expected in the MixConsole :

• Second issue : I play on the sound loaded in the second bus and I get the expected audio feedback (see the signal in the Stereo Out bus), but no visual feedback of it on the HS7 instrument track meter.

• Third issue : when selecting a preset in the program Selector for a given bus, it remains displayed, no matter the output bus used after. Rather misleading, I think…

These alone make me avoid systematically any use of instrument tracks for multi-timbral purpose : practically, VSTis set in instrument tracks “might” allow the same multi-timbral capabilities as the instrument rack ones but, considering their workflow/visual implementation, they are simply useless for this kind of tasks, IMO. When using an instrument rack set with several output busses, I have none of the above issues, but maybe I am still missing something about the instrument tracks implementation…

[cubic13]

Exactly my thought on the subject…

[Martin.Jirsak]

Hi,

In the Project window, the Audio Return Channels are handled as an Automation Tracks of the given Instrument Track.

[cubic13]

… and it’s supposed to be intuitive ? I feel like a noob on that one : in which way a given output busses setting is related to automation ?