Clef change splitting double repeat

Yes, to the right would be corrrect.

If the repeated section starts and ends in different clefs, arguably the starting clef after the start-repeat bar line is more pedantically correct. After all, you repeat from after the barline, not from just before it.

In the worst case, you might want a cautionary clef change before a double repeat barline, and another clef after it!

I have never seen the Dorico approach in any edition until now. To me it does not seem logical, and in the attached wonderful :smiley: cello piece I try to show why…


Apart from that: Dorico has become my standard application for score writing. The 2.2 update is really, really excellent. Thank you, Dorico team, for your great work.

Here is an example with a double repeat in the middle of a measure, which I think only emphasizes the issue:

Here is the same in a Henle edition, and it is the same in all other editions that I have compared, and Beethoven’s manuscript also has clef after the repeat:

Has this been corrected? And the small clef in the lower staff should be before the repeat mark because the repeat leads back to a bass clef. See Henle. I am not sure why this is happening. Here is what it leads back to:

Bass clef

It’s as if Dorico has decided that a clef is not necessary for the repeat, because nothing is actually played in the bass clef at the beginning.

No, there haven’t been any changes in this regard recently. I agree that it should be possible to achieve the appearance shown in the Henle publication, but at the present time this wouldn’t be possible without awkward workarounds.

Thank you, Daniel. I will try to find a work-around.

The lower clef placed is actually placed after the repeat mark in the first edition of this piece to apply only to what follows, but all modern editions that I have looked at place it before the repeat so that it applies to both the repeat and what follows. Did Dorico feel that the clef was not necessary for the repeat because the first notes played on the repeat are not in the bass clef?

Dorico doesn’t yet automatically add items like clefs, key signatures and time signatures to give the performer information about where the repeat jumps back to. This is something we plan to add, but not yet something we’ve tackled.

That explains it. Thank you, Daniel. Yes, that would be a very good thing to add. I will just insert a clef by means of a Playing Technique, if I can find a way to remove the one after the bar line. Maybe an empty measure or something like that will work.

I have been very impressed with Dorico 5 and finally bought Dorico after 4 previous trials and several weeks of testing. I plan to make it my principal engraving tool.

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I’ve been reading your posts all these years with great interest, wondering whether you would somehow invest in this software. Your input is always appreciated, I suppose I will have the chance to read many more from now on! Welcome on board :slightly_smiling_face:

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I’m very pleased to hear that you’ve finally taken the plunge with Dorico, John. I hope it will prove to be a useful and capable partner in your work.

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The feeling is mutual, MarcLarcher. I I have admired and been helped by your very clear explanations of things Dorico. Thank you so much! I too look forward to our future interactions.

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Daniel, Dorico is a wonderful resource for musicians, and it is rapidly becoming everything that I had hoped for in notation software. Thank you and the Dorico team for a job superbly done!

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Just had the same situation, where I wanted the clef change after the double repeat sign. Here’s a workaround without inserting music text:

  • Add a short extra bar after the double repeat sign.
  • Make the following barline dashed.
  • Put the new clef after the rest of the extra bar.
  • Set the original time signature after the extra bar.

Clef change 1

  • In Engraving Options > barlines set the dash and gap lengths to 0.
  • Hide the time signatures in the properties.
  • Remove the rest in the extra bar.
  • Adjust vertical spacing.
  • Add a bar number change.

Clef change 2

Playback of course is delayed by the value of the extra bar, so it could also be a 1/64 or 1/128 bar.

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Thank you for detailing that, Juerg_Loeffler. I had managed to find much the same method and was able do both the clef and the similar meter situation using it, but its great to have it written out in case I forget it. Maybe a special folder for such workarounds would be a good idea.