Clef/key/time changes and repeat barlines

The conventional order of clef, key and time signature changes and/or cautionary markings may be different from usual at a repeat bar line. In some cases one may need two markings, for example a cautionary clef change before the bar line and a different clef change after it, as at the end of this example:
clef change 2.jpg
Also, a style of engraving that was in use at least until the start of the 20th century always begins a grand staff with treble and bass clefs, even if this requires a clef change before the first note of the score, as here:
clef change 1.png
Current notation programs either can’t handle two events of the same type at the same rhythmical position, and/or can’t automatically handle a combination of these notations in an “unusual” order.

How will Dorico deal with situations like this?

(Disclaimer: the fact that Daniels former employers seem to be getting tied in knots implementing this right now is pure coincidence - their competitors don’t handle it well either!)

Dorico cannot place a clef change immediately preceding the first note of a score; if you place a clef change there, it will replace the initial clef in the preamble (which is our term for the clef and key signature, and time signature if appropriate, repeated at the start of each system). We would like to support this now-outmoded practice one day, but it will not be supported in the first version.

We don’t yet have repeat barlines in place, so I can’t speak to how the situation with a clef immediately preceding an end repeat might be handled, but hopefully we’ll be able to accommodate changes of clef and key in that situation.

For what it’s worth, I have replicated this obsolete practice—in Finale I think, which means it was a long while ago—by placing a hidden rest at the start of the first bar, and inserting the new clef after that rest. Dorico seems to be designed to make faking of this kind unnecessary, but it might be an option in this case.

Certainly if we decided to support this convention, we would make it such that you didn’t need to hide a rest at the start of the first bar, but I suppose that such a thing would also ultimately be possible in Dorico if you really needed to reproduce a particular historical engraving in every traditional detail.

I don’t want to labour the point, but one can usually fix one clef (or time/key signature) in the wrong position manually. Two consecutive clefs etc, as in my attachment is harder to fake without just using a “symbol” for one of them. But that’s not a nice workround if the repeat bar line moves from the middle of a system to the end…

But I suppose you could always get as creative as a “published” Lilypond workround to the “initial clef change” issue:
(1) create a custom “treble clef” that looks like a bass clef, and put it at the start of the staff
(2) create a custom time signature that looks like a normal time signature followed by a treble clef sign! :unamused: :nerd:

Though I still like the old-style of piano clef engraving even in new pieces, I understand that it’s considered obsolete by many. There’s one case where double-clefs is still very common in the rare cases when it happens and I think important, and that is a part which begins with cues in another clef. I couldn’t find an example quickly, but here’s an example of this sort of double cleffing within a part:
Screen Shot 2016-07-10 at 18.47.31.jpg
It really throws off a performer who plays only or primarily in one clef to encounter an unusual clef at the beginning of a part or of a system, so a secondary clef can really help. When I’ve needed to do this in a competitor’s product I’ve had to transpose the cue so that it looks right in the current clef and put in the cue clefs as symbols.

(The changing of key signatures to represent different transpositions is unusual, I will grant).