Hi, I use Cubase 12 Pro. What is the difference between using clip gain in an audio event vs using pre-gain on the mixer in Cubase? Are they the same thing or difference stages of the signal chain?
Finally, does pre-gain do the same thing as using a gain control plugin? I’ve heard some recording engineers talk about using a gain control plugin to control the level of gain going into insert plug-ins, for example, but is pre-gain the same thing or not, and therefore do I actually need to bother with an additional gain contol plug-in?
I heard that some updates to the clip gain were made in Cubase 14, but I don’t know what exactly. I still use Cubase 12 and as it does everything I need it to I have no need to upgrade to a later version.
In its basic functionality, they all do the same thing, which is changing the level of the signal of course.
Clip gain has the advantage that you immediately see the change in level in the waveform display. You can of course use pre gain and automation to achieve basically the same thing, but editing directly on the audio event and see the waveform change is nice. I think (but am not sure) it is also applied before Direct Offline Processing, which pre gain is definitely not
If people talk about using a gain plugin to control the levels going into the insert plugins, they usually use a DAW that doesn’t have a pre gain function like Cubase. Basically, they have to use a gain plugin in the first insert slot to do the same thing as the pre gain in Cubase.
Sometimes it can be helpful using a gain plugin in between other insert plugins, especially as some plugins have no clean output control of their own and may change the level drastically.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to go back to a Cubase version without clip gain like it is today, and I always missed it in earlier versions. But YMMV, of course.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I think those people who talk about using a gain control plugin are people who are using others DAWs than Cubase. Speaking of gain staging when you have multiple plugins in a row, how is that done?
I have a gain staging ‘cheat sheet’ here that goes through the steps but it doesn’t say anything about the input controls on the plugins nor anything about gain staging with multiple insert plugins in a row. It says you have to adjust the ouput level of a plugin to peak around -10dBFS. What are the input levels on plugins used for then? And if you’ve got multiple plugins in a row, do you switch them on one by one at first and check the peak level is the same as without it on? Then finally, switch them all on?
As for the new clip gain from Cubase 14 onwards, it looks like it has an event volume control added to it, which is more convenient than on previous versions (although you can still drag the clip gain up and down on audio events in previous versions). The following video shows this, and also says that the clip gain adjustment is done pre-insert, i.e. before any processing is applied:
Typically the same thing; setting levels so that the plugin performs the way you want. If you want to be certain about these things then you can read the manual for each individual plugin to see if the input level matters at all, and if it does where it should be set and to what value.
In general people overthink this stuff. After all, a “neutral” plugin doesn’t care about input level so you can just shove a signal into it and tweak it. A plugin where it actually matters is typically one that’s been coded that way, for example plugins that generate “saturation” like tape-emulating plugins, and in that case what you want is for the plugin to color the sound which means you probably should fiddle with the input/output levels to make sure it sounds the way you want in terms of color.
You can’t really think about that way I think. Automatically setting an average and peak to standard values ignores what type of signal it is and what type of music you’re working on. I get that this type of advice is just sort of a ballpark starting point, especially suited for people with less experience perhaps, but it does tie your hands a bit.
Mixing is where you balance levels against each other. Some instruments maybe benefit from a wider range between average and peak whereas others do not. I especially dislike the last point saying that the master should average -10dB (presumably LUFS???) which is really loud, and with peaks only 4dB above that?! That sounds like nonsense to me.
Very limited dynamic range, and a limit to -6dBFS for no good reason. If that’s where you end up you’ve scrapped a ton of potential dynamic range. Great if that’s the type of music you’re making, but it sure as heck isn’t the type of music I listen to… ever.
How good is your knowledge of how a DAW works compared to an analogue system when it comes to levels?
Do you know and understand the difference between integer and floating point numbers in regards to levels?
In short - most plugins do not need any gain staging whatsoever. You can feed them any level on the input. Delay, reverb, chorus, filter, EQ (not programmed to emulate analog gear), flanger, phaser, and what not simply don’t care.
Plugins where you need to keep an eye on the input level: analog emulations and plugins that deal with absolute volume levels (limiters, gates, compressors).
This is correct. Any changes done on the track’s time line material is applied before the signal is send to the channel, which holds the plugins.
I understand the difference between analogue (dB) and digitial (dBFS) scales. I’m not sure about the difference between integer and floating point numbers in regards to levels.
To complicate things further, this video discus ‘studio level’ vs ‘consumer level’ equipment….do I need to worry about these settings on my interface or within Cubase:
Digital audio that uses an integer number format has a ceiling at 0 dBFS. No level can go above it.
Digital audio that uses a floating point number format has such a ceiling somewhere above +700 dBFS. As a result you cannot practically clip the audio signal.
DAWs use floating point numbers, as do plugins. That’s why plugins don’t care about the input level unless the are specifically programmed to care. (As written before these are emulations of analog gear and plugins that deal with absolute volume levels.)
I don’t currently use any analog hardware outboard recording gear. I do use Universal Audio plugins that emulate analog gear such as the Studer A800 tape machine, Teletronix LA-2A compressor/limiter, Pultec EQs, Avalon VT-737SP, etc. I just use these as insert plugins in Cubase. However, most of the UA plugins they have input level controls and VU meters on them like the actual analog equipment
In this case you don’t need to worry about studio and consumer levels.
But, as @MattiasNYC hinted, you should look up the favored input level for each plugin in its manual.
Btw, when you talk about floating point numbers, are you talking about the settings in Studio > Studio Setup OR Project > Setup in Cubase? As you can see from the screenshots below (from Cubase 12 Pro), in both cases, they have settings for 32 bit float and 64 bit float.
