Complaining about the price of Dorico 3.5 update

I really fail to es how to pay 60€/year for a PROFESSIONAL software is an issue.

My job is in environmental engineering. I would be very happy to just pay 60€/year for my professional software… I am easily paying between 500€/year to 1500€/year for different pieces of software or ddbb updates. If your job depends on it, I am sure is a good investment and 60€ are well worth it.

For non professional users, I think it depends on the new functionalities added, but for professionals I think it should be a no brainer… just my two cents

…and hobbyists can hardly complain about the price of Dorico SE…

What answer are you looking for? (Apart from “Oh, OK, because you’ve complained, have it for free.”)

The reasons for having the update now have been explained to you.

Is there any “sensible answer” that you are prepared to accept, other than “We all totally agree with you, you are absolutely right, and Steinberg is a totally evil company?”

If the folks who complain about the cost take a jar and put ten dollars (or the equivalent) in it each month, by next summer they will each have $120 towards Dorico 4.0.

If one does not support those who do excellent work, you will end up with shoddy work or nothing.

(I hope in five years the Dorico Team will be hard at work redesigning the basic AI back end to support further growth down the line. Otherwise they will end up like Finale with an antiquated code base that boxes them in. But I know enough not to ask them to reveal their plans that far ahead, since it would be business suicide.)

The team is working really hard, and is delivering. Getting paid for it is the least. I’ve been really glad I could participate, and honestly this upgrade is a no-brainer (xml export, refinement, speed-entry, figured bass, instant print preview… Too many goodies)
This team is ahead any other software team I’ve known (and I’ve been using computers for over 30 years now), in terms of honesty, well thought out work and clever implementation. That people still complain amazes me, but hey, that’s the thing with human beings!

There are tens of thousands of hours of work - and months worth of other costs - involved in putting this upgrade together. Does anyone seriously believe the Dorico team should be doing all this for free?

My 2p. I think 3.5 is a better, more complete and more compelling upgrade than 3.0. They’ve already done us a huge favour by making it an interim release, thereby charging less than they could have done.

Honestly, at this point I wish they’d just go to a subscription model instead of making me feel like I have to make a DECISION each time. Just bill me, say, $80/yr and call it good. I hate being nickel and dimed.

That would make me make a decision each month. Do I need Dorico this month? Can I postpone some of the work? IMHO, please, don’t. I hate subscriptions.

I had the experience that somewhere during all the form filling in and new pages the price went from €59,99 to €70-something. I noted this and continued. On later pages this price was reduced to the original €59,99, and that is what I paid for the upgrade from v.3.5. The donload of the Halicon file was glacially slow!

I should add that logging on to Steinberg’s website to do this yesterday was very frustrating, as I got a spinning wheel several times when trying to input my password. Eventually, I went in another way (not from the Hub) and things went more smoothly, though I was surprised that more detail about my account had not been retained, given that from Dorico 1 on they have not changed much. I did not understand why I had to input my street address again – Dorico have never written to me there, except to send the dongle years ago!

I am looking forward to mastering the figured bass feature. It was always one of the weak features of Sibelius.

David

Hi,

Seen in context, I think Dorico 3.5 keeps up with past updates in worth and content, and so I find these pricing complaints about this update highly undeserved. Perhaps the “.5” was a bad marketing call on the part of the Dorico team, perhaps it was too early to enter the “.5” Steinberg gig for Dorico, and they should have just named it 4.0. I don’t know, I’m not a marketeer. What I do know is that it’s worth it for me, and that it’s a great piece of Music software.

All the best,
António

Since people are complaining about the time frame of this paid update, I thought it might be interesting to look up Dorico’s entire history of paid updates/releases to put everything in its proper context. Here is what I found, paid updates only:

Version 1.0 released 19 October 2016

Version 2.0 released 30 May 2018

Version 3.0 released 2 September 2019

Version 3.5 released 20 May 2020

So, the big picture is that there have been only 3 paid updates in the 3.5+ years that Dorico has been on the market. While it is true that version 3.5 came out only 8 months after the previous one, there was more than a year and a half(!) between both 1.0-2.0 and 2.0-3.0. Furthermore, this list does not include the non-paid updates, which were always pretty substantial in their own right.

It seems to me that the Dorico team has been more than reasonable here, and that the relatively short time frame of this release is more than balanced out by the time frame of the two previous releases, especially when one considers the price of this one.

Dave

Back in December, in response to a user who was asking for a faster turnaround between updates (for the record, the median interval between updates is just 9 weeks, which is already pretty fast), I collated a list of all of the Dorico releases to date, which you can find here.

To that list of 17 releases from October 2016 to October 2019 we can now add three more releases:

3.1: 16 Jan 2020 (14 weeks)
3.1.10: 25 Feb 2020 (6 weeks)
3.5: 20 May 2020 (12 weeks)

That’s a total of 20 releases since October 2016, of which we have asked for additional money for three of them. And of those 20 updates, you can count on the fingers of one hand those updates that have not added significant new functionality in their own right, being focused purely on maintenance/bug fixing.

So I feel pretty good about the value for money that we have delivered over the past four years. If you bought Dorico 1.0 at the crossgrade price of $279 in October 2016 and have bought each update upon its release, not taking advantage of any of the time-limited sales offers on the update at any point, then your total expenditure would be around $540 for 20 releases adding literally hundreds of features. And we have always made available a 30-day trial version at every point except for the very short window of a couple of weeks after each of the three paid updates, so that every customer can make his or her own judgement over the quality and suitability of the software for his or her own requirements.

To put that in perspective, that’s 43 months. If you had been paying a monthly subscription to Avid at $20 every month since then for Sibelius Ultimate, you would have spent $860. And here is the sum total of features you would have received in that time: multiple staff sizes within the same project; dockable Inspector; magnetic glissando lines; Cloud Sharing; create text/lines/slurs across multiple staves at once; improved note spacing; switching to a new version of Qt (marketed as a feature requiring 400+ changes); Review Mode (ostensibly a single button that prevents editing of the score); loop playback and scrub playback; minor MusicXML improvements; smart MIDI import; automatic staff spacing; ties in second endings; laissez vibrer ties; some new built-in house styles. Obviously that’s building on the foundation laid by the previous 20+ years’ development of the software, but some of those updates have been hailed as being really significant, though the sum total of those updates is smaller than any one of the three paid updates we have released.

What about if you had been a Finale user for that whole time? When Dorico 1.0 was released in October 2016, the current version of Finale was Finale 25, released that past August. Let’s assume you bought that at the crossgrade price, like Dorico, so that would have been $199. You would have ponied up $149 for the update to Finale 26 two years later in October 2018, so you would have spent about $350. And the sum total of the new features you would have received in the five maintenance updates to Finale 25 and three maintenance updates to Finale 26 amount to some minor interface tweaks; a lot of improvements to MusicXML export that are focused on MakeMusic’s other application, SmartMusic; articulations that don’t collide with each other; a Go To Bar dialog box; and a lot of internal refactoring that bring little additional immediate user-visible benefit. Again, this is building on the 30 year legacy of that application, yes, which is mature and powerful. But the $149 upgrade fee for Finale 25 users to go to Finale 26 to get hold of those non-colliding articulations (a new feature in a mature music notation application celebrating its 30th anniversary!) and a Go To Bar dialog looks pretty high to me, compared to the $59 cost of the Dorico 3.5 update for Dorico 3 users.

And please don’t misunderstand me: I know people who work at both of those companies, and I am reasonably certain that they are doing the best they can given their available resources and expertise, the age of their respective codebases, quality of tooling, level of support from their corporate parent, and so on and so on. Software development is hard, and I would not presume to know precisely what factors influence why some products evolve at a slower pace than others, though I’ve been around the block enough to have a pretty good idea.

But let’s be realistic: there’s one company working in the field of music notation software who’s pushing it forwards. And if you look at the trajectory of Dorico’s development over the past three and a half years versus its main commercial competitors, there’s really no comparison in terms of the return on your own personal investment.

I would happily put every single one of the comparable features in Dorico, Sibelius and Finale up against each other and feel confident that not only have we built hundreds of features over the past three and a half years to close any functional gaps that may exist between Dorico and those applications, but we have built features that are superior to the comparable features in our more mature competitors. And there is nothing in those more mature competitors to match features like condensing, or Dorico’s DTP page layout features, or open meter support, or support for microtonality, or multi-movement works, or linked guitar tablature, or smart figured bass, or automatic harmonics, or trills that correctly influence subsequent accidentals, or harp pedaling support, and on, and on.

I know that €60 is not nothing, particularly at the moment when everything is very difficult – not only financially – for not only musicians but pretty much everybody. But look at it this way: given that both Sibelius and Finale are still available and to all appearances successful, the market will apparently stand both a much slower pace of development and higher prices than we at Steinberg are providing and asking for. So isn’t Dorico 3.5 actually pretty great value for money?

Hear hear!

I think I’ve only used Sibelius twice in the past 18 months, and both times I’ve rather swiftly reported bugs. The first one was that somebody had broken the T time signature functionality (which no longer gave the “type your own” option focus, meaning you had to reach for a mouse) - this has now been fixed. The second was that clicking the middle mouse button just completely broke mouse use until you restarted the application. This hasn’t been fixed.

It doesn’t bode well for Avid.

(And yes: 3.5 is a steal and I’ve very happily paid for it.)

But hope springs eternal. Some guy has just started making videos on how to get the best out of Sibelius. The latest one is on how to deal with condensed scores. Ironically, he published it the day before Dorico 3.5 was released :blush:

^Daniel drops the mic^

Daniel, I pray you have a lovely weekend off. You truly deserve it.
(Purgatory is atoned one forum post at a time; I predict instant bliss awaits you.)

Of course it is — and I am very appreciative, not least because my work requires me to pay Adobe £76 every month to use InDesign + Photoshop + Acrobat, plus I have to maintain current versions of Finale and Sibelius Ultimate for those clients who still submit work in those formats (no, XML won’t suffice).

As Daniel has detailed above, Dorico is much better value than any of its competitors and — I would add — so much more rewarding and enjoyable to use.

Daniel, I’m sure you know that the VAST majority of those who invested in Dorico are tickled pink that you guys have done what you have done. I’m glad you rehearsed the big picture, because against that backdrop things look different than if viewed only for the last 9 months.

And I should add that you went to great pains to explain that what ended up being called 3.5 is really a 4.0 release that came so quickly that you couldn’t bring yourself to impose that (and the even higher update price) on your customers. We understand that you’re trying to reset your production calendar for releases this time every year.

We can’t say how the complainers feel is wrong, it’s how they feel. But we can say that the basis for those feelings, however real to them, is not solid when viewed objectively.

3.5 or 4 or whatever, it’s just a name. If you put aside this naming issue, things become much simpler.

They offer something new, if you want it, pay for it.

When the team put out smaller upgrade like 3.1, it was free, you got new stuff, but the team has done extra work just to make everyone happy. Did you give them anything in return for the free upgrade, like… a virtual hug or something?

No one force you to do the upgrade really, it’s a matter of choice. You can stay at 3.1 if you are happy with it. But if you want to stay at the very edge of the technology that Dorico offers, with all the hardworking the team has put in, then you have to pay for it…

Doesn’t everything work like that in daily life?