Composing to Picture question - best way to update timings to new edit?

Cubase
1

TLDR Question - what is the best way to adjust music & hitpoints to line up to an updated picture edit, to reflect the same trims?

I’m using Cubase to compose to a short film. I originally used the amazing time warp tool to set all musically specific hitpoints to the first edit they sent me, so I could set precise markers and tempo changes to picture.

Now they have sent me an updated edit, and the scenes are pretty much the same but they did a lot of small trims to overall tighten up the pace etc.

I am faced with the task of updating the music to hit the same edit points as before, but it’s quite challenging as I’m doing it a very tedious way and wondering if there is a faster, perhaps more logical method. First I took the new and old edits into an NLE (Premiere in my case) so I could see them side by side and calculate the frame differentials. i.e., 9 frames here, 1sec4frames there etc.

Now that I know how much I need to trim each hitpoint by, I am literally selecting all my events and manually moving them over using nudge (left), frame by frame. In a large session with many tracks, this is not only tedious also increases the chance of error. Is there a better way to select everything and move it over by an exact number of frames? In most cases I’ll need to trim/ripple the music so things hit earlier, but there might be some shots which were extended and thus I would need to add time/silence to ensure the other hit points land correctly.

FYI I am aware of range selection > cut time & insert silence, but I guess my question is somewhat more geared toward ensuring the meter changes and tempo mapping lands in the right places. Should I instead be adjusting the tempo map to the new hitpoints?

And also wondering if I do need to move anything by a select number of frames, is there a popup window where I can enter this rather than using nudge one frame at a time?

Hope that all makes sense - thank you!

2

You might not like this answer, but I’m not sure if there’s a quick fix for this.

In my experience it is almost always very tedious work. It’s not just the syncing itself, but making sure the music retains a certain feeling/bounce/spark/however-you-want-to-call-it often requires more than a few tempo changes. So - I know you didn’t ask for this answer - unless a director/editor is willing to tidying up the edit after music, I stick to picture locked versions where possible, as making these ‘small’ adjustments often feel like a huge compromise to the flow of the music when done after you’ve composed something.

I might be a bit jaded though. I’d like if we’d take just a little more time sometimes, instead of the constant rush, trying to squeeze the composition process into the edit process, winning a few weeks of planning. Unless the director and/or editor have the intention of bending either processes towards one another it’s ususally a waste of the composers time. And while I’m at it: Let’s stop being so hell bent on keeping all options on the table all the time. Committing to a creative decision is sometimes the most beautiful thing you can do to a piece of art, but I digress, and this is turning into a different discussion altogether.

SO, to tend to your actual question: No quick fix, but it helps to make it at least a bit insightful. And to do that I use marker tracks.

I think the benefit of Nuendo over Cubase come in here a little bit as well, you can load in multiple video tracks/files/versions where I think Cubase only supports 1 video track (?). That said, you might be able to do it with ‘track versions’. Load up different versions on 1 video track, so you can switch between the old and new edit all in the comfort of Cubase itself.

Then, take the old edit and mark the sync points on a marker track. Take the new edit and mark where your sync points need to go (on a separate marker track). Now at least you’ve got an insightful guide to show you where to warp your music and depending on the content (audio/midi/automation) adjust accordingly.

This last step can be super tedious. The time warp tool (set to have musical events follow) can be helpful in some cases, but in the end - and I keep saying this - the work is tedious.

1 Like
3

Haha, yeah, I hear you. I’m a little bit new to scoring to picture (a bit of a career change, though I’ve made my own music for years) but I have worked many jobs in post-production over the years including sound design, mix, and even editing. Been through so many circuses, and from what I’ve experienced, in spite of emphasizing the importance of sticking to picture lock for the sake of sound & music, directors/producers/studios/agencies/clients all nod along as if to understand and agree, but will invariably ignore my pleas and update the edit regardless, creating so many unnecessary issues especially in sound & music departments for sync and sanity.

And then of course half these changes come in the final hour, when you’ve been working an extra long Friday and they need you to cancel your dinner plans and stay late to adjust and re-render everything to stay on “deadline”… been there, done that, too many times!

At this stage I have come to a point of acceptance about how people like to work, and the futility in arguing for only working with a true and locked picture which is respected by all. “Unlocking” just happens and history tells me it will continue to happen regardless of what I say or think, unfortunately :wink: It’s no fun but it’s also a battle I’m not going to win, so it is what it is.

Good idea about using marker tracks and lining up the two edits to make it easier to see the edit point differences. I actually do own a license for Nuendo which I enjoy using for my sound stuff, but I’m enjoying Cubase 14 for some of the new features (I actually do use that score editor view, gasp!). I look forward to when Nuendo gets the V14 update so the features carry over. In the meantime I’ll use the video track versions and toggle back and forth. I just gotta roll up my sleeves and get to it… wish me luck.

1 Like
4

Haha, yeah, I hear you. I’m a little bit new to scoring to picture (a bit of a career change, though I’ve made my own music for years) but I have worked many jobs in post-production over the years including sound design, mix, and even editing. Been through so many circuses, and from what I’ve experienced, in spite of emphasizing the importance of sticking to picture lock for the sake of sound & music, directors/producers/studios/agencies/clients all nod along as if to understand and agree, but will invariably ignore my pleas and update the edit regardless, creating so many unnecessary issues especially in sound & music departments for sync and sanity.

Yeah, sounds about right haha.
I often wonder if they realize the quality compromise they’re making. Then again, maybe it is part of our jobs to educate them a bit in that department as well!

Anyway, good luck man! And I’m looking forward to N14 as well!

Cheers,

1 Like
5

Heya,

I don’t know if this info might be relevant to you, but I work moving forward all the time, i.e., if and when I receive the new BAFTA/OSCAR-worthy edit (until the next masterpiece of an edit is sent to me), I move forward until the very end of the film. If the director wants to see my previous score, before the latest edit all synced up then TOUGH! I move forward until I complete the first pass, and after receiving the God Given notes, I go back from the start and fix everything to the LOCKED edit.

And onto my process. I work per Cubase session per cue to keep things tidy. When the new masterpiece arrives, I import the old cue with the video to see where my hit points are. I then either subtract or add bars or a quarter (etc,) , depending on the mess I am receiving.

If the hit points have been messed with too much, I sometimes add a fermata to the composition or play with the tempo to achieve what I need to do. Inevitably, things will change, just look at it as a live orchestral recording, having to add bars, or using rallentando, accelerando, or fermatas to achieve what you need.

It’s not a huge bother, but I have to clarify to directors that I will not accept a million edits.

I once came across a guy who created a short, and as he couldn’t understand the process, i.e. “I only trimmed a few frames” who was a complete nightmare, so , not working with that guy again, but, under “normal” circumstances, the process I follow is actually not that much of a pain.

1 Like
6

Haha, relateable – it’s always a masterpiece and producers are looking for a “rockstar” or “ninja” who seemingly enjoys working late on weekends under pressure :joy::man_facepalming:

Good to know, effectively that is what I have been doing (one Cubase session per cue), all from a pretty well organized template, color coded and all that jazz. When it comes to adding or subtracting bars, do you do it by creating a locator range of the time difference, and then cut time or insert silence?

I’m actually a big Dorico user so I do a lot of composing that way, at least for the intial process. The rest of the way I’m staying inside Cubase for notes, but when you say you add a fermata, how do you do that within Cubase? (Or are you just saying that metaphorically as a musical reference?) I would love to be able to add fermatas & accels & ralls. the way I do in Dorico…

Ooof! Fortunately in my case I do have confidence this second edit will be the true picture locked edit (knock on wood), primarily because there are a lot of VFX shots and they are working up against a budget and festival deadlines. So I’ve found those kind of factors are helpful in forcing creatives to stick to a locked edit, since adding a few frames to a scene with a lot of VFX can add thousands of dollars and weeks of time to the post schedule. The director has been otherwise great to work with and pretty reasonable, though I know that’s not always the case in the business.

I suppose my fear around this came from how I learned about tempo mapping with the time warp tool (I’m somewhat new to scoring in Cubase so I only learned about it recently). I heard consistent suggestions that you should map in a linear fashion left to right, because any tempo mapping changes you make earlier in time can screw everything else up downstream.

This advice makes sense and is all well in good in normal scenarios, but as soon as there are edit changes requiring hitpoints start or end later, it’s not feasible to expect those markers and tempo maps will never change. Just the nature of the beast. But it’s no doubt a pain because the original time mapping I had done to the first edit took a lot of time to finesse, with meter changes and all – and all the small frame adjustments to the edit kinda throws that out the window! Definitely makes sense why you will insist to not accept a bunch of edits. It’s a massive and pointless timesuck to have to keep updating!

1 Like
7

Tell me about it, or the other Gem of, “I really love the latest Zimmer score, can you replicate a 2.5M score with your PC for a few hundred dollars??” :joy:

I have to be rough in my approach until I achieve syncing the hit points. I would love to give you a highly sophisticated process, but time just doesn’t allow me to go about it in any complex way.

If my hit points have moved forward, I start by adding a bar before the misaligned hit points and see where this gets me, I then adjust by trying to not add a full bar or drop or increase the tempo.

Of course, if the hits fall backward, I cut a bar and take it from there. Sometimes, musically this might be a pain, but it is the lesser evil to me, to work as fast as I can.

Sometimes, to the most extreme, I have to cut a cue into two sub-cues, but this is a very rare thing to happen.

Yeah, that’s it, it’s a fermata within Cubase, metaphorically so to speak. I drop the tempo to adjust the subsequent tempi and get the hitpoints to fall correctly.

Let me know in a few months :slight_smile:

Ah, that’s great to hear!

Yeah, this makes sense, especially when folks are composing multiple cues in one session.

To be honest, I very rarely work with the timewarp tool. I only use it to fix timing issues on audio, which as a tool is incredibly useful. I just make adjustments on the tempo track. Some folks might find the timewarp tool better, but this process works well for me.

Yeah, it can be a real pain…Directors and producers don’t understand how tough it can be, cutting a frame takes a split second, but to a composer, it can become a huge issue, depending on the composition.

Yeah, for sure, just lay down your mode of operation, it’s not unreasonable. You have to keep moving forward. By the time you finish your first pass, the production team will have distilled the cut as the ‘final’, until you deliver your music and they then butcher it in the post-production :rofl:

1 Like
8

Too accurate! Here’s a big budget reference, but we only have a few hundred dollars – “why doesn’t it sound the same?” Cue the “client expectations vs. budget” memes lol.

All that makes perfect sense – thanks for clarifying!

Yeah, especially with rhythmic-driven music, where the difference of a few frames or a second here and there can have a huge impact on how the tempo or beat has to land. Fortunately a few of the scenes I’m working on are basically pads/strings under dialogue, nothing of a pulse, so those have been quite easy to adjust and ignore the tempo mapping altogether (they’re effectively senza misura if you will). But there’s a few cues which are driven by drums, and for one which they requested to be “a little bit faster” I’ve talked them into keeping the tempo the same but adding more intense drums… they “signed off” on that but fingers crossed…:

basically! :sweat_smile:

1 Like