Considering to leave Cubase for ProTools

Windows needs its own native Pro Audio API, but that is a different discussion.

I think Cubase is using some sort of hybrid audio engine - for lack of a better term - and that may be contributing some form of a limiting factor. I think Studio One also has something similar, though the specific term evades me at the moment.

I need to reinstall some DAWs and test this. This is fairly common in DAWs, but implementations can differ wildly.

ASIO drivers are also a pretty obvious factor that cannot be ruled out, particular when an interface is class compliant on macOS while using ASIO on Windows. That being said, Cubase implements CoreAudio support the same way the Steinberg Built-in ASIO Driver does so on top of Windows Audio, so the architecture is the same regardless of the underlying audio subsystem. (Effectively, Cubase is always using a generic driver for CoreAudio with class compliant devices.)

Some interfaces have good WDM drivers on Windows that allow cross-checking ASIO driver quality by using WASAPI Exclusive with the same audio device, but Cubase doesn’t support that. Studio One’s support is kind of broken since v6 launched.

I think Reaper and Sonar are the best DAWs for those kinds of diagnostics.

Additionally, for people with CPUs that have a large number of cores, it’s often better to limit the number of Cores a DAW can utilize (if the DAW allows this) as running lots of cores on the CPU can limit clock speeds. Tasks that are heavily parallelized can benefit from running across e.g. 32-64 (16-32 Cores with SMT Enabled) Threads on a CPU, but that may not be as optimal for DAW use for some users.

I don’t think Cubase has that option (at least, not exposed to the user).

Boot Clocks are limited initially (beyond ~4 Cores Utilized) and at some point the clock speed for the entire CPU is reduced due to TDP, etc. Almost all X64 CPUs function in this way, and have for the past decade or more.

Stress Testing is often unrealistic as it introduces impractical scenarios that will create reactions that may not happen in a practical sense for that user on the same machine.

I think Samplitude (which uses a Hybrid Audio Engine) is the only DAW that I’ve come across that allows you to set how many CPUs it utilizes (with a non-hidden setting). It was quickly discovered that running it across all threads on many of these newer CPUs results in lower performance - right around the time that 8C/16T [or more] CPUs started to become commonplace (2019/2020 time frame).

I have seen this in quite a few other creative packages, though (Graphics Design, Digital Painting, Digital Asset Management, etc.).

my AMD 7950x will let all cores boost to 5.7GHZ so limiting cores makes zero difference. On Intel you can dissable core parking which certainly helps on some situations. You can also install process lassoo which will let you limit any cores for any particular program , this doesn’t help with Cubase.

ASIO is a robust, well devised protocol and as long as you use a decent audio device it is more efficient than Core audio needing only one kernel call to Core audio’s 2. So the issue issn’t to do with ASIO imho.

personally I think the issue is mainly to do with ASIO guard which as yo say is a hybrid engine. This was introduced at a time before 16/32 core cpu’s were available and well before E and p core architecture, it also was brought in to apease Mac users who were comparing with Logic at the time which had a hybrid engine.

FFW to 2024 and we can see a program like Reaper tha doesn’t have a hybrid engine is running performance rings around all the hybrid DAW’s on windows and Mac OS when it comes to large mix sessions.

I’ve set up a bench test using a real life mix I did at the end of last year so I can see how Cubase/Studio One and Reaper perform on the same hardware on Windows and Mac OS. I’ve now replaced all the plugins with freeware versions so at some point anyone can try it.

M

Reaper is good for sure. But regarding MIDI editing and Film scoring Cubase is the King IMHO…

1 Like

Yes I agree. I moved from Reaper to Cubase specifically for the MIDI functionality and the fact that I work alone now. Reaper is exceptionally good if system resources are a concern and the price is incredible for what you get.

Don’t know how to tell you this but… Cubase has been seeing other people anyways.

1 Like

I use both Pro Tools Studio and Cubase 12 Pro. I have C13, but prefer C12. These days, if your working with another studio chances are they are running Pro Tools so it makes since to have the same software. At first, I hated Pro Tools, however when they put in the software that you can make your own key commands it was easier to learn. I just changed them to what I setup in Cubase.

Now I go back and forth. Cubase has great MIDI and composer tools. Pro Tools has great audio editing. However, I am finding where if I’m recording audio, I am using Pro Tools more and more. These days, you should know more than one DAW.

Agreed 100%.

As for the performance difference question from the OP -

I use a bunch of DAWs on a bunch of machines, on all three platforms (actually in full transparency, I’ve recently phased out all Windows machines in my studio, so now I just run Mac and Linux, but I ran Windows 10/11 up until recently), and the bottom line is that performance varies wildly across platforms, across CPU architectures, across DAWs, across chipsets, and there is NO definitive answer.

The only way to answer your question is to test YOUR DAW and YOUR plugins with YOUR sessions on YOUR hardware with YOUR preferred OS. It’s as simple as that. It’s also a function of how well you’ve configured your machine in some cases.

In general, there are some recent patterns/trends I’ve noticed, but I can also provide examples that contradict these trends. But it’s important to note that this can all change in a matter of a single patch, so this is a constantly shifting landscape over time. However, there are still some general patterns I’ve noticed in recent years.

Most importantly, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill. YMMV. Again, you need to test things out YOURSELF. Anecdotal opinions from well-meaning forum people, including myself, will only give you a tiny snapshot of the situation and will most likely NOT correspond directly to YOUR unique circumstances! Also, I find many of the DAW experts out there – while helpful – can also only help you so much before YOU have to test things for YOUR sessions YOURSELF anyway.

But here are some more general trends/patterns I’ve noticed:

1 - There is NO platform or DAW that “just works perfectly out of the box.” However, the closest I’ve been able to achieve in recent years “out of the box” without some tweaks, is:

  • A - Reaper running on Apple hardware running an OS version that is the prior version of the OS if a new major OS version has been released in the last 6 months. (In other words, only recently would I recommend that Sonoma is okay for DAW use, otherwise I would recommend staying on Ventura for a while longer.) This is a generally stable, easy, out-of-the-box experience on every Mac I’ve tried with Reaper. I can get up and running in minutes, and no extra drivers for audio devices too, as long as they are class compliant. It’s the closest to plug and play that’s out there IMO. Caveat - I also avoid AU plugins.

  • B - Reaper (again) running on a recent Debian-related distro of Linux - such as Ubuntu (currently 24.04) or Linux Mint 21.3 or LMDE 6, works surprisingly well on just about every machine I’ve tried it on, out of the box, from old to semi-recent hardware, with zero extra work for decent performance. In fact, I recently got better performance on the same hardware with Linux than Windows, shockingly with zero effort. Extreme low-latency performance, however, requires more tweaks, and if you are using bleeding edge hardware, you will almost certainly run into issues with kernel support. And I’d also say avoid nVidia graphics cards. I recently sold most of my nVidia cards and replaced them with AMD cards and my Linux DAWs all thanked me for it.

2 - Everything else for Win, Mac, Linux, will require more tweaks to varying degrees to get optimal behavior IMO, depending on many factors. You MIGHT luck out with your hardware, drivers, motherboard features, DAW software, and plugins on any other machine with Windows, macOS, or Linux. But the above two scenarios A and B have given me the LEAST headaches out of the box, repeatedly on different hardware.

3 - Reaper generally performs as well as or more efficiently, on average, than most other DAWs across all platforms in my experience, and this includes performance on Windows, macOS, and Linux of varying OS versions and collections of plugins.

4 - Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not pushing Reaper on people. I use it and like it, but Cubase and Nuendo are very much part of my studio and there are times when I definitely don’t want to use Reaper at all. So I don’t want to make this about Reaper, but we are talking performance in general, so Reaper is obviously going to come up.

Having said that, Cubase can be unfortunately somewhat inconsistent on Windows IMO, based on various factors of hardware, but currently does quite well on Apple Silicon. Steinberg seems to have spent some real dev resources on Apple Silicon recently, thankfully, including optimizing for p/e-cores. So Steinberg should get some kudos for this, and they perform better on Apple Silicon than you might expect, including better than Studio One in my testing.

As for Windows, I found older 11th-gen Intel hardware and earlier to be great for Cubase, and that Cubase 12/13 on Windows 10 was very performant and solid IMO with a motherboard that wasn’t loaded with extra bells and whistles (or I disabled those bells and whistles). Once p- and e- cores were introduced by Intel though, I saw that there were a number of issues so I started buying AMD at that point, which has also been pretty good, except for the latest Ryzen chips which gave me some problems (see below). I would still not use 12th gen and up Intel CPUs TBH, although Steinberg has indicated that they support them now. I am skeptical or at least cautious, and would personally hold off. I think there are more growing pains with p/e cores to come. I could be wrong.

5 - In my own testing with Ryzen 7 7000 series CPUs, I sadly ran into stability problems sometimes under load with DDR5 RAM, especially with 4X sticks on the motherboard on two different motherboards. This was a shocker to me and it did not present itself until under heavy load and RAM testing with various DAWs running Windows 11. I believe this may be an issue related to what some current Ryzen DAW users face, depending on motherboard, BIOS, and RAM configurations. This impacted all DAWs I tested. So whatever you do if you have the latest Ryzen stuff, choose your motherboard and RAM very carefully and test it thoroughly under load. You may need to run your RAM at slower speeds to achieve better stability, etc… YMMV. I feel the platform is still undergoing growing pains, unfortunately.

The broader point of bringing up the latest Ryzen and Intel chips is that DAW users may run into issues, some documented (12th gen issues with Cubase until recently) and not-so-documented (RAM instability issues with 4X sticks on latest Ryzen boards). The lesson I’m trying to take from that is to stay conservative with hardware. You don’t always need or want the latest stuff.

6 - Not all DAWs do well with efficiency cores in newer CPUs as has been stated… However, again, in all fairness, Steinberg is doing better than many and kudos should be given. Remember there are many DAWs out there, and Cubase actually does pretty well in terms of performance in the whole market IMO. But there are so many factors. Reaper is the only one that consistently ranks in the upper tier on all three platforms in terms of performance in my experience, and is usually fast at adopting new CPU architectures. However, it has had its own blips here and there too. Recently, Avid announced support for efficiency cores in Pro Tools, but I have not tested it. Avid’s track record over the years has been in the lower tier of performance and issues unfortunately. So whatever you feel about Steinberg, you’re unlikely to be trading “up” to Avid for performance and stability. But again, YMMV with so many factors.

The good news is that with time, the whole e-core controversy and similar issues with DAWs will likely quiet down (at least until the next big CPU innovation comes along!). Again, I have learned in recent years to try to stay on the conservative side of the hardware equation and let other people have more of the headaches. I regularly violate that rule though as I test out new hardware more than I should for my own sanity. I’m trying though. :innocent:

7 - In the long-term trends of DAW performance, Cubase is usually somewhere in the middle of the pack compared to many DAWs in my personal testing. Over the years it varies up and down a little, but right now IMO Cubase is currently on the mid-tier for Windows performance (pending how well they did with recent p/e core optimization on Windows) and they are upper-tier of Apple performance compared to many other DAWs. Where people are seeing deviation from that, I believe is likely related to some hardware or driver issue. Again, I would still NOT run Cubase on bleeding-edge hardware today. If you MUST run bleeding edge hardware, you will fare much better running Reaper TBH; if anything is going to work better on newer hardware, Reaper will likely be the one to be there first. Heck, Reaper even runs on a Raspberry Pi. I mean Justin (over at Reaper) is seriously on the ball about CPUs in general, maybe better than any other DAW developer. Not perfect, but pretty darn good.

8 - As for the OP, Cubase generally performs better than Pro Tools on Win/Mac, but again, this varies over time, and is subject to differences with hardware, drivers, and plugins. But again, don’t be under the illusion that you are trading up if you move to Avid. It may seem that way right now, but the trends show otherwise over time. If you have to use Avid, use it for the most common reasons, which are to exchange projects with your colleagues who are using it, or if you are required to use it for upstream or downstream contracts. Otherwise, I see no advantage – performance or otherwise – to use Avid over Steinberg. YMMV as always.

9 - All the above is subjective, and as I said, it’s a tiny window into one person’s experience. What I’m saying is not going to solve your problems if you are not happy with the performance of any DAW on any platform. Reminder that you need to test things yourself with your precise situation.

Good luck. And again, the grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.

4 Likes

AMD says otherwise, and it doesn’t work that way. I’ve never been able to get a Ryzen CPU to run all cores on an 8-16C CPU at max Boost. Intel works the same (or at least did before BIG.little). The Max Boost Clock goes down the more cores you use. It has always been this way.

What you see in Task Manager for Clock Speed isn’t really what’s happening across all cores of the CPU.

Yes, you’re correct , however the 7950x can do 5.1 GHZ all cores locked so that’s still quite decent CPU performance and only 600mhz down from max single core boost.

M

That’s a 10.5% off max boost performance, which is significant when someone is making assumptions about performance they can expect out of a CPU based on wrong information or bad assumptions due to not understanding that Rated Max Boost for CPUs is a Single Core Rating.

ASIO is dependent heavily on driver implementation. Windows doesn’t have anything for ASIO that functions like the system driver for CoreAudio on macOS. CoreAudio is reliable because as long as Apple’s OS driver is stable and reliable, so is every class compliant device.

Various ASIO drivers can have their own issues specific to them. I have multiple here that are practically unusable due to driver issues. The same interfaces are flawless on a Mac, because they don’t need that driver there (Class Compliant). A couple work better through the WDM Driver via WASAPI than ASIO, because of the driver.

So it depends heavily on the quality of the ASIO Driver.

The reason why many people dislike ASIO is due largely to the driver roulette that you go through, unless you follow the herd and flock to one of a few very reliable manufacturers (like RME).

the performance issues are NOT hardware related though hence my comments. They are to do with the hybrid engine and ASIO guard and bussing in Cubase.

Reaper outperforms Cubase on windows and Mac OS more or less by the same margin so Core audio/ASIO makes zero difference.

when your machine is hitting the red ASIO guard at 28% system performnce, 10.5% of max boost is completely irrelevant :slight_smile: as you’re NOT using 72% of your availale resources.

M

We are not in disagreement here. I’ve already questioned this aspect of the software upthread.

I don’t notice such massive disparities between REAPER and Cubase on my MBP - and certainly not Studio One (previously mentioned).

I don’t think you understand where I’m coming from IRT ASIO, so I’m not even going to bother trying to break that down, as I don’t think it will be received anyways. We’ll just agree to disagree there.

Limiting Core utilization helps in some other DAWs because not all software applications are designed to benefit from high degrees of parallelization. Forcing it can actually introduce performance drops. That’s why it’s done.

600MHz is 50% of the Boost Headroom for that CPU.

5.7GHz Max Boost - 4.5GHz Base Clock = 1.2GHz Differential, or Boost Headroom (the amount of additional OC the CPU can run at during a single core workload). 600MHz is half of that.

That 10.5% is what you don’t get when you assume you can sustain all the cores at 5.7GHz, but they instead run at 5.1GHz. Of course, there is variance because sometimes less than “all cores” are used.

If you were wrong before, I don’t understand why you’re still bringing this up. Your initial reply was to me, I was simply giving information for other users to factor in when trying to optimize their PCs for DAW use, or when choosing or building a PC for DAW use.

It’s like people buying 4 sticks of DDR4-3600MHz RAM (or even high clock DDR5) without knowing that most MOBOs cannot reliably XMP/AMP (OC/Boost) DDR4 RAM to those speeds across 4 DIMM Slots. You’ll just get crashes and BSODs until EFI Resets the OC and Reverts the clock settings back to DDR4 Spec speeds.

Ok , Sorry if i missunderstood what you were saying.

I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of all this with various people over the last 6 months . I asked here for people with M2 ultra(24 core) or M3 max (16 core) machines to help run some new DAW bench tests we’ve created but I had no takers so we havent been able to test on a high core count MacOS machine so our MacOS results are only from a 10 core so that may be not representitive.

So far none of the Dev’s we’ve spoken to have mentioned any issues regarding how core audio and ASIO come into play so if you have any information on this could you PM me and I’ll forward any info to the relevant developers/departments.

Thanks for your contribution :slight_smile:

M