Create a new master page

Let say I use a Master Page Set with one “First” page and one “Default” page.
For specific reasons I need another master page with a slightly different foot text.
I click on the + symbol to create a new master page.
I name this copy “Default 2”.
I choose based on “Default” because I only need to make a small edit and do not want to rebuild the page from scratch.
I choose “Custom” type as I do not want to replace the Default page.

But when I edit “Default 2” all the edits I do are reflected in “Default” or vice versa!
Why is it so?
What is the sense of having a always-staying-duplicate of a master page?

EDIT
This issue (feature?) has been already discussed here:
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=140140&p=754255

It seems that you have to delete and recreate the text frames that you want to change and not only edit them!

I too find this confusing. If you’re making a duplicate of a master page, it should no longer be connected to the original. What’s the point of making a duplicate if any changes made happen to both?

Here’s a scenario where the existing behaviour could be helpful:

You have a whole bunch of pages that are all slightly different. If you use the same master page for each one, each change is an override. If you decide that you need to nudge the header on each page, you can’t do it by adjusting the master page because that change will have no effect on overridden (layout) pages - you have to adjust each page individually.

If, on the other hand, you set up each of your slightly different pages by employing a duplicated master page, then, as long as you’ve not deleted and reinserted the header, you can do them all in one go by just editing one of your many “default” master pages.

(I’m one of the oddballs that relies on this function frequently.)

@ pianoleo
I think I begin to understand :wink:
Following your logic I even may have just found a case in my actual work where this behaviour is usefull.

The important missing link for me was that you can edit the copy but you have to delete and recreate the text frames, then these new created frames are not linked any more.
After more thoughts about this, I find it now a quite interesting and usefull concept.

One has to be carefull though and make a log somewhere of what is linked to what!
Or is there a way to see this already (of course beside of the name of the master page)?

I’m still confused… if I edit a duplicate Master Page, it seems to change the original Master Page at the same time. The only way I can have them different is if I delete and recreate the frames on the page. How is that any different than starting fresh from a blank page? I suppose it’s a way of keeping some frames identical, then first DELETING and recreating the frames which are different. Still, in most software, when one starts working with a copy of something, it is no longer connected to the original. Any adjustments to frames of copies shouldn’t be reflected on the original – that’s why it’s a COPY. Or maybe I’m not grasping the use of the concept. For now, I find it best to just start from a blank page and recreate what I need. It means a lot of copying frame settings from the original to the new master page. Maybe there is a tutorial about Master Pages I haven’t seen which explains it more.

dwlarson, A “new” master page “based on” an existing master page is not a copy or a duplicate; it’s a linked page. Its frames are thus linked to the master page on which it is based.

This is what the program says:

This is what the manual says:

The words “duplicate” and “copy” don’t appear in either of these places - just “new” and “based on”. This is consistent with how dynamics work in Dorico. It’s also consistent in how Notehead Sets work: if you create a Notehead set based on another set, you’ll find that editing a notehead affects the same notehead in each set in which it appears.

I’d be gaslighting if I suggested that you, personally, have concocted the idea that what you’re creating is a copy or a duplicate. Maybe I could suggest that perhaps you read such an assumption either on this forum or the Dorico Facebook group…

After repeatedly running headlong into this issue, I think I (maybe) finally understand. It appears that when creating a new master page based upon another page (First or Default), the things one is able to change are frame positions (e.g., slightly lowered for high treble notes), etc. What I would like to do is create a new master page that looks exactly like another, then alter some characteristic of that new master page, without affecting the one it is based upon.

Here is the exact situation I’m trying to address. I’m a church musician; many hymn concertato settings will create parts which span 2 pages for the instrumentalists. The Default Master Page puts page numbers left-aligned and right-aligned as per booklet printing (first page on the right, second page on the left of the inside spread). All good.

I want to create a new Master Page that looks exactly like the Default one, with the only difference being that the page numbers are swapped left-to-right, and justified accordingly. This is for printing a 2-up spread with the first page on the left, the second on the right. All good.

I can change the frame positioning of the page numbers with little [well, relatively!] difficulty. But… if I change the justification of the page numbers in the new Master Page, it also changes the justification of the “based upon” Master Page. NOT what I what to do - that will affect all the parts which DO need the original Master Page.

So… my question is: how do I create a new Master Page which is a copy of an existing Master Page, to which I can make edits which don’t affect the original page it is based upon? I just don’t want to start from scratch - there should be a way to copy a page layout, then make adjustments to it which don’t change the original. Or am I obtusely missing something? :confused:

I confess I don’t prefer the existing functionality here, though it’s not difficult to start from scratch. That’s the best option at this point.

I couldn’t see any way to do it without starting from scratch. The “based on” seems to provide an unbreakable link. Fortunately the default layout is pretty easy to replicate. FWIW this is what I came up with - apologies if I’ve misunderstood what you’re after.
2-Up.dorico.zip (401 KB)

The only way of breaking the link is to delete the frame. It’ll only delete from the master page that’s in front of you; not the master page it’s based on.

Dwlarson - I think you want to make a new master page based on your existing master page. Delete the frame that page number is in, then create a new frame that contains the {@page@} token, and position accordingly.

How it works is fine for me, now that I know it. But the UI really needs to make it more obvious. In my opinion “based on” does not necessarily imply that the frames will be linked, and I suspect it’s an unpleasant surprise for most new users when they trip over it the first time.

The one missing link in the chain is a means to unlink the linked text frames. Right-click > Frames > Unlink text frames…?

If a more explicit explanation/warning would be helpful to have here in the manual, I can take a look at concocting something.

On a side note…

Leo, I hope you don’t mind me pointing out that this is an older version of the manual - is this one you have saved? The differences are relatively minor but as you know, newer tends to be better :wink:

Yes, I think this would be very helpful.

Certainly helpful, but I think the confusion lies in the UI terminology. “Based on” means something specific to me, and as fkretlow said, it tripped me up several times initially. I didn’t think I needed to consult the manual because I assumed I understood what it would do. It was only after I had gotten bitten that I turned to the manual and the forum.

I hope you don’t mind me pointing out that you’re quoting what I wrote six months ago :wink:

Time for another tea…