Thanks everybody!
I’m gonna take a second dive into Cubase. For some strange reason…and I know all the null tests and everything…it DOES sound “better” than Logic. I’m not even kidding!
The workflow, for song writing…is pretty steep. Very powerful…but steep. I feel like Cubase can do “MORE” if you really master it.
Amadeus e.d.p
I’m totally in agreement.
Amadeus e.d.p.
Cubase definitely had one of the best/transparent/aliasing free render algorithms years ago. Protools or Premiere sucked compared to it.
Nowadays there shouldn’t be any big issues left though. So I guess its mostly the workflow 
Tj99,
So I kinda created a new workstation using Halion that is doing some super CRAZY stuff. Like CPU melting DSP beds of goodness. It’s called SkyFall. I’m using a new way to design sounds that are using up to 20 layers of synthesis held together by surround panning, lots of DSP sound shaping and the like…
What I’m getting at is that playing like a normal wave file on a single track doesn’t take up all the “bits” on that channel in theory. You are panned to a single point and all those other points in the sonic spectrum are essentially empty. You can “kinda” fill it out with chorus and reverb and the like…but if you can use something REAL TIME that is hammering a DAW channel in ways that I think NOBODY has really done…you start to hear differences.
So essentially this…I think it’s more about when you start pushing those channels PAST what would normally be done…you start to hear differences. Like either the DAW or Halion starts making desicisions about what frequencies to keep and which not to play. I think THIS is where Cubase sounds different. I think when pushed…it seems to do a slightly better job about those choices.
That was a hot pile of mumbo-jumbo and apologies to all. But I’m not kidding. In extreme situations…the engines act differently.
Amadeus e.d.p.
I am afraid this is not how it works in digital workstations…
There’s virtually no limit with 32 or 64 bit float. The processing is linear, meaning it will sound the same whether your audio is at -25 dB or +60 dB above 0.
The only moment you would notice this is when using analog modeled plugins. These indeed react to the incoming level and as a consequence will sound a bit different. Also most analog modeled plugins do clip at 0 dB so they will saturate or distort harder when the signal exceed this ceiling.
Hey Louis…
Let me explain it like this. Let’s lay you have 150 voices of polyphony coming from just 4 notes. That sound is made up of 10 individual stereo layers of synthesis. Let’s say you have +5db of120HZ bass on EACH of those layers. Having that much low end causes the Halion Engine (at least to my ears) to suppress OTHER frequencies.
Now let’s take some of tracks to -5DB at the same 120HZ…Now other sonic information that the engine saw as either unable to be heard or just didn’t render at all…they become audible.
So it’s in making THOSE types of decisions that I feel like Cubase does differently. Pushing things to extremes and how the engines chooses to drop or suppress various frequencies. Cubase just retains high end information in a different way to my ears.
Thanks!
Amadeus e.d.p.
It’s just summing the layers, surely? I wouldn’t expect there to be any choice on what to drop or not as it shouldn’t be necessary. If a ceiling gets hit then it’s just basic math and would clip at the max value I presume?
Are you coming to this conclusion through listening? If so discrepancies will be heard in your headphones or speakers due to the physical ability to play high frequencies vs the lower.
Also, what your ears get used to can massively effect the perceived sound, This video is quite an eye opener on how easy that happens:
This is not how it works in the digital realm. This sounds more like your monitoring setup or the plugin itself is doing this rather than the DAW.
Be assured, there is virtually no difference in sound quality between DAWs when it comes to digital summing, unless there is any non linearity added on purpose (like e.g. when using mixbus32c).
I guess we’re gonna have to disagree here T! That’s cool. But I’m telling you right now that when I load up SkyFall (My Halion based synth)……that SOMETHING is happening when I’m pushing the channel fader to +10db or higher due to the Warp Architecture . Something somewhere is different. Not night and day. Just “different”.
Thanks for your feedback though. I love this sound design stuff!
Amadeus e.d.p.
Here’s a few reasons why it may sound different when changing the gain :
(just my personal thoughts)
If you have too much bass it will indeed absorb higher frequencies.
I mean this does not happen inside the DAW, it’s a physical phenomenon that occurs with the speakers. When the speakers have to make large and slow movements (i.e. reproducing low frequencies), it will be harder for them to reproduce higher frequencies simultaneously. This phenomenon is accentuated as you increase the volume, because the coil has to push the diaphragm with more force through greater distances. Highest frequencies disappear faster, that’s why studio monitors have a tweeter in addition to the woofer in order to mitigate this effect, but this affects the woofer too.
If the instruments have synthesis somewhere, the signal will not always start at the same position in the waveform, it can start anywhere each time a note is played or even have analog drift. In addition, this also includes effects such as reverb, delay, chorus, distortion etc, they can have modulation in them which makes them sound random for each layer / track.
Because of this, when you change the gain structure of the layers or tracks, phase cancellation will most probably occur at different places, and as you said it’s not night and day, it just feels different.
As you increase the track volume inside Cubase, it could be that the signal is clipping. Not necessarily at the channels stage, but it could be clipping at the Control Room stage without you noticing. But I guess in that case you would hear a notable difference.
What do you call “Warp Architecture”?
Also one thing you can try is doing a render of a same sequence, one with +5 dB at 120 Hz and one with -5 dB, then use the Spectrum Analyzer on each resulting file (it’s in the Audio menu). Now compare the high frequency content, if you don’t have notable differences then it means it comes from your monitoring device and/or ears (ears also cut the highs when they receive too much bass).
Hey Louis,
Brief rundown. I’m making a product demo soon.
The 4 Aux Sends have been…“hacked”. They now function as The Warp Cores. Think of them as Super Audio Frequency Maximizers. I BELIEVE it’s a total of 32 DSP Processes. 1. Air. 2. Sky. 3. Body. 4. Gravity. Like if you take a Bell sound (that has no bass)…then send to The Gravity Warp Core… That thin bell sound INSTANTLY gets this perfectly in tune…but much lower sound…added. It’s really nuts. All of it.
People were clowning on it until I posted a Shootout with Alchemy/U-He and I believe there was one more online. Urs himself said “Oh No!” Then he posted “Stunning!” on the video.
I’m not kidding you that so far from all my testing…no other synthesizer on the market can sound like this. See all those mixer channels? They all make up one sound. Not 15 channels of clang…your ears hear ONE SOUND. But with a WHOLE LOT MORE DETAIL and vibrancy and EVERYTHING because I may choose to use 5 Wavetable zones at different velocities just to make up what would be the release sound.
I’ll post more for everyone to see. To be completely honest…I had NO IDEA it had gotten to this level. It literally SMOKES my Integra or anything else I put it up against.
Oh, and it also has a separate piece of software that runs as an insert behind The Host Halion Program. It’s called The Super DAC. Again, can’t say too much…but it makes it sound like Hardware instead of the normal VST sound on some instruments.
Hope this helps!!!
Amadeus e.d.p.
Lol, so this is a modded HALion? This looks very interesting.
I’m waiting to hear it in action!
I don’t know how to.
Ha!
Louis….it’s a game changer. I’ll post links this weekend hopefully to some shootouts on YouTube!
Amadeus e.d.p.
Hey M
Links to the smack down soon my friend!
Amadeus e.d.p.
Curious to see that as well!
Ok. This weekend!
Seriously…I’m actually shocked at how far things went with this whole new “engine” concept. It’s nuts. Like either I’m super biased or the last 7 plus years and some out of the box thinking and a WHOLE LOT of prayer brung forth a SYNTH BEAST! Ha!
Amadeus e.d.p.
