Intending for it to be played by a human. CC64 takes care of the two bass notes ringing out so it’s not a playback problem. I’m not a professional pianist so I’m going to have to understand the sostenuto pedal for the future! Got a lot of solutions from everyone here. Thanks!
I think you are getting wrapped up in notation issues without having resolved exactly what you want to hear.
Remember, on a piano, once a note is struck and released, it will stop sounding unless the sustain pedal is pressed. But, if the sustain pedal is pressed it will affect the sound of all the other notes being played (so your semiquavers will sound mushy).
Do you really want the bass to be held? And if so, at the expense of mushy semiquavers? And if not, how will you resolve the physical problem of how the player can hold the bass note for the duration you want, whilst simultaneously crossing hands to play the top note?
These are practical considerations that can easily lead the novice composer to appear foolish in the concert hall, where you cannot hide behind a CC64 message.
With the sostenuto pedal (if you have one) just the first three Fs could be caught without sustaining any of the other semiquavers, and for that matter if the low Fs are pedal notes from bar 1 they could be caught silently before commencing bar 1, thus leaving the higher F unsustained.
I am sure there are quite a few examples of piano music notated on more than two staves. How about composers like Grainger, Ives, Stockhausen, Sorabji? I dont have scores available to prove this supposition, but see no principle that would forbid a third stave for the two bars above.
David
That was in response to “why not duplicate the instrument”, which I took to mean “show two pianos, one above the other”. This is not the same thing as showing a third staff on a single grand staff.
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*organist giggles to himself
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Oh dear. I’ve now got vertigo! I finally setup my 88 keyboard with the pedal which wasn’t working on my old Korg X5D when I was playing/notating the example. The director has chosen another cue anyway which has a minim and then hands crossing in crotchets. More straightforward to notate. I also have a pianist on board so feeling more confident. I do have an honours degree in Composition so I’m not scared of a concert hall! Cheers folks.
Hi dear Dorico users!
I happen to have the “same issue” copying a Debussy score “Pour le Piano”.
My Low A keeps sounding with clef changes. In the original print I own, the note stays at the same place, easier to see it’s the same note yet not logical… Anyway, searching for my answer, I stumbled on this thread. Would you guys by any chance have a solution to my problem?
Thanks
I find that notation rather mind-bending! The way the tie from the first system to the second changes angle, but then the note is shown in the same staff position at the start of the second system makes me question whether that note is supposed to be affected by the clef change.
If it really is the case that you want a tied note to continue being drawn at a staff position consistent with a different clef, that’s not something Dorico can do (which I personally think is probably a good thing!), so you’d need to untie the note and have a new note of the pitch that corresponds to the desired staff position, then use a slur to join it to its neighbours, and adjust the slur in Engrave mode to make it look more tie-like.
Sometimes there is a genuine case for piano music being on 3 staves. I think this qualifies. No one can actually read those über low notes. (And it’s not going to really save you much space anyway.)
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Thanks Daniel!
I couldn’t find the “hack”.
I definitely agree its a “good thing” Dorico prevents this very ambiguous notation.
It’s a particular piece of notation this one.
Thanks again for your help
Xavier
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Another possible solution to creating this with software just occurred to me. It would have the advantage of correct playback. One could actually use three staves, but superimpose the lower two, since this is essentially what the notation represents. This assumes that the software can superimpose staves, which is probably the case with Dorico.
This type of notation is actually not quite as rare as one might think. Here is an example from the first movement of Brahms’ Piano Sonata op. 5. It is understandable that he would not use three staves for just the one note (he did use three staves for more extensive passages in the Piano Sonata op. 2 published around the same time.)
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Thanks for the example! I have done this overlapping-staff trick in Finale in the past, but it does not seem possible to superimpose them perfectly in Dorico. There is no digital control of this as there is in Finale.
For this particular example I would put a Middle C in the LH, supress its playback, and add a slur as a fake tie. There is a pedal there anyway, so the E♭ octave will sustain.
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I think the trick might be suppressing measure rests in one staff while needing them in the rest of the staves and the rest of the piece.
Yours is certainly a useful strategy to test out.
John’s solution seems to work for me anyway. You just need to fine tune the positioning with Alt+Ctrl+Shift+arrow to move it in the smallest increments.
Ah, I forgot about the finer keyboard command! Thanks.
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Thanks for showing the feasibility of that in Dorico, FredGUnn!
The Breitkopf and Härtel complete works edition supplemented the notation in the following way for clarity. The little clefs are often used in this situation:
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Very interesting example John!
