Data Loss Bug/Quirk with Project Backup!

I knew, I knew, knew knew something was off with Project Backup.

On occasion, I have mysteriously had audio data disappear as if I had messed up when moving a project to a folder, or, the audio was stored somewhere else other than the project pool and thus deleted without realizing.

Now I had the suspicion it was Project Backpup but wasn’t able to recreate… Now I have. Now, I don’t know if Project Backup was always this way, but, I had a 2nd suspicion that this protocol changes around version 10 or 10.5… or maybe it was 11.

Here’s how it happens.

Sometimes, I record new ideas into an existing project and want them to be in their own project. Naturally, the quickest way seemed to be using Project Backup… But I don’t want all of the other stuff which let’s say is 20gb, for a phrase that is 10mb.

So, I would save the current project, then save a new version to be safe, then I would delete everything but the new phrase and in Project Backup utilize ‘Remove Unused Files’, then simply ‘Undo’ the delete and carry on with the current project.

You would think it would remove unused files only for the new project and new project location but it has and has been, removing unused files for the current project and location.

a few caveats - sometimes, for some reason, it doesn’t do it for all the audio files in the project. Some files/events do return properly. I haven’t figured out this variable yet, but I think I’m close.

The second variable as I mentioned earlier, is, I’m pretty sure this wasn’t always like this. Something at some point changed in the protocol. I think I’m also about to figure this out so stay tuned…

I believe it has something to do with ‘Keep Current Project Active’ when carrying out this action in the way I am. I believe it is this setting that is the variable of danger… about to find out…


UPDATE:

’Keep Current Project Active’ is the variable of danger on first test here…

There is still a variable of strangeness to it I haven’t figured out, and that is that for some reason. some files do come back or rather, aren’t removed.


This is a really really really bad place to have inconsistent behavior…

I’m really worried now, because I have done a lot of project backup archiving, and material transferring, project renaming, etc, etc utilizing Project Backup… and there’s two things I know… I’ve encountered this in old archives where it gave me the impression “I messed up, that audio must have stayed in a different project pool that is gone now”, and I’ve utilized this method A LOT… :skull_and_crossbones: is this the suicide emoji???


Steps to reproduce: (don’t use a working project) :wink:

  • Create a new project
  • save it
  • create an audio track
  • record audio on that track
  • save the project again
  • delete the audio
  • do a project backup with these settings enabled
    • Keep Current Project Active
    • Remove Unused Files
  • Now undo the delete in the current project.
  • The audio will not return
  • the audio will not be in the pool
  • the audio will not be in the projects audio folder.

Curious Why wouldn’t you use “save new version” or “Save as”?

Explained

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I must be stupid…

Are you being sarcastic calling me stupid, because I feel pretty stupid to at this moment…

it was a long winded post, easy to miss some of the stuff I said in there… or just forget by the time you get to the end…

I find the whole way that Cubase saves projects and stores files to be rather confusing and not a little intimidating to be honest. I’m never quite sure what’s going to happen or if my files are going to go missing.

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You will definitely lose data if you do the above steps.

What could be even worse about it, is, some people might/do rely on their Pool to keep files right? Some people see deleting an audio event as “soft-deleting” because it stays in the pool.

Well, if they do a ‘Back up Project’/‘Remove Unused Files’/‘Keep Current Project Active’… that pool as been emptied out. The stuff isn’t even in the trash.


What tripped me up, was, I have always done this method since Cubase 4 when it was called ‘Save Project to New Folder’ *and there was no ‘Keep Current Project Active’ back then… and my method I obviously tested to make sure it worked before doing it to a project… and it always worked. Well, I used Cubase 4 for a long time, think I jumped from 4 to 9.5 or even 10… and at some point, ‘Keep Current Project Active’ was added sometime between 4 and 10.5…


I figured out why it didn’t delete all my files… it’s because I forgot I had forgot I had stuff in TrackVersions still… so all that stuff was retained in the project.

ffs… I wonder how much stuff I have lost over the past 5 years because of this… I don’t even know yet… and won’t for some time…


whopsyyy

That does not sound like your using the product as it was intended. It sounds like your trying to make it do something it’s not created for in the first place.

The project back up is surely to move your project and back it up, not to create mini sub projects with only a fraction of the original in it.

Warning: you need to make sure you always select a project folder for your data or it will end up being shared and when you use remove unused data it will delete everything from a lot of projects. When you create a new project always select “prompt for new location” in the hub.

I have lost about 2 years of audio once because I used the hubs default which is to put all audio from every project in the same folder. You get a new folder for each project but Cubase puts all the audio in the default documents folder. I did not even notice that had happened to me until I started seeing missing audio in old projects. It’s the most stupid thing in Cubase. You cannot use remove unused data if you have a shared location. You must always always prompt for a new location when you create a new project. Every time too.

I would not have the expectation that remove unused files could be undone. I always thought that’s a one time thing and you had to be really sure you know what your about to do before pressing it.

I cannot see how you can complain the product is not acting how you expected when your not using it how it suppose to be used but here’s how it will work.

HOW TO DO IT:

  1. Make sure you have prompted for a new location when you first start your project. And do that for every project or you cannot use remove unused files without deleting everything.
  2. Create your new project and create your new ideas, let’s say you have 3 new ideas in it.
  3. Create 3 new backup in different directory folders, not subfolders of the original project. Do not delete any files out of them. Make them full backups.
  4. Close your main project so you have no projects open.
  5. Open the first backup project and delete all the events and tracks you do not want. Now go to the pool and remove unused files.
  6. Do the same for the other two backup.

QED. You get what you want without trying to rig the system.

Honestly I would be very careful using that option, I would copy all of your projects to an external drive first in case it goes wrong.at least you can copy them back over if it all goes south.

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Nope, historically wrong and not logically solid.

I’m not sure how long you have been using Cubase, but I’ve been using it since Cubase SX 3 when ‘Backup Project’ was called ‘Save Project to New Folder’. This was before ‘Keep Current Project Active’ existed in the Backup dialogue.

I tested my method thoroughly then to make sure, and never had a problem with it. The difference is, it would close the current project, create/open the new one. So, I’d have to close the new one, and re-open the previous one… But the files were always retained.

Then I jumped from Cubase 4 to 9 or 10, can’t remember. But this new ‘Keep Current Project Active’ feature was integrated, and I guess, sometimes would use it.

Whether you want to point your figure at me or whatever, it is inarguable that this inconsistency in the protocol is dangerous and not solid design

Let’s get to the logic now,

Think about this topologically, and also think about this outside my own context and instead, just in normal use as you are claiming it’s intended for…

1.) You have a project, you’ve been doing some work in it… editing, deleting, trimming etc, etc. Not really thinking, you decide to do a Backup Project.
2.) The dialog box pops up, and it’s giving you options… again, think about this topologically… What are the options for? Are the options for the current version, or are the options for the backup version… Based off the original protocol, the options are for the Backup version. Why would it remove anything from the current version.
3.) Many people leave stuff in their pool to keep, as explained in previous posts… outside of my own context, just regular use… this means pool audio is also deleted.

And just to reemphasize - This problem does not occur when ‘Keep Current Project Active’ is disabled but happens when it is enabled… Tell me that’s not confusing regardless of whether i’m “using it in the right way or not”.

Here’s the other silly catch on this, thank you for pointing it out! If you use normal ‘Remove Unused Files’ command in the project, those files actually go into the trash and can be recovered, it’s not until you do ‘Empty Trash’ that things are gone gone. But again, in this case, ‘Remove Unused Files’ in project backup = gone gone. Another silly inconsistency.

I do have a True Image backup in this case… I have no idea what has been lost over the years though… because I did many of these backups I’m pretty sure… ffs


I’ll add another point of logic… if the project is “staying active”, the user would expect to be able to do a series of ctrl-z undos anyways…

No, let’s not go through it logically. Your logic is not how it works. I answered one of your other posts and your full of logical ways it should work. It does not work like that so get over it.

I have been using Cubase since 1990. I am not new to it. I obviously have more experience with the recent versions than you, though I’m now on C11 and C12, I remember moving to a new folder and again I’m not going to assume backup works the same. But that changed a few years ago for the rest of us.

What I do know about is removing unused data because I lost a lot of it before so I made damn sure I know how to be safe it. I also have a demos project which I back up into a new folder and remove unused data and it then becomes my main project from that idea.

NOT ONLY AM I ANSWERING YOUR POST AS AN EXPERIENCED USER BUT I DO EXACTLY WHAT YOUR TRYING TO DO.

I told you a work around and your only really interested in the way it should work in your head. Well Cubase isn’t in your head.

If you do not want solutions then don’t bother posting and wasting pols time.

If you can find in the manual where it states: “once you have removed unused data you can still use undo whilst the project is active” then you have a case, but as that is only in your head then you have to accept how it actually works.

The backup is to save your current project as a backup and the remove unused data is given as an option because when you backup it up you are also tidying it all up to save some space. It’s not to make mini sub projects of different element. Though I have clearly shown you how to do that.

Only if what you say is found in the manual and explicitly mentioned in detail can you say logically that is how it should work.

So the steps you followed are :

Dude is literally removing the files from the disk and is expecting the files to recover when undoing the track deletion from within the project. Okay. I think I have reached new levels of bewilderment with that one.

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wow you two, I’m going to bite my tongue on this one, and this is biting my tongue.

Dude, you don’t know who I am, and that’s fine… I’m probably one of the more knowledgeable Cubase users on Earth and have probably ຊuashed more bugs. I don’t need lessons from you, at least, I’ve never seen anyone on the forum, on internet, in interviews, on YouTube or in person know the things that I know about this software.

Slow the f down mate, and don’t write in caps at me.

I’m not interested in your workaround, it sucks, I already know how to do that, and I already have a better workaround.

That’s your most clever retort for sure, but it’s very convenient for you to make in the context of …

What about, oh, I don’t know… (returning caps on you) FINDING IT WORKS THAT WAY IN THE PROGRAM SINCE SX3 ONLY TO HAVE IT FLIP AROUND ON ME BY CHECKING A NEW FEATURE OPTION.

Oh but we’re not talking about logic here my bad.

Where are you saving space? On the backup drive, by removing material not in the currently working project timeline. THAT DOESN’T MEAN, SOMEONE MIGHT NOT WANT ACCESS TO OLD FILES IN THE POOL IN THE CURRENT WORKING ACTIVE VERSION.

Dude is literally not reading and spreading misinformation and misdirecting people away from the issue when it needs to be fixed. Good job.

Again, if you read. ‘Removing Unused Files’ typically doesn’t remove from the disk, it puts it into project trash which can be recovered.

That was fun


Project backup

(how it has worked since SX3 or 4)
Project A (active project)
Backup Project -‘Keep Current Project Active’ DISABLED
Project B Created
Remove Unused Files from Project B.
Return to Project A - all files still there

Project A (active project)
Backup Project -‘Keep Current Project Active’ ENABLED
Removes and Deletes completely unused files from Project A
Create Project B

  • Tell me how that is logical
  • Tell me how that is good data loss prevention software design
  • Tell me how, that isn’t potentially a design mistake/bug/poor choice

I mean, it’s just so gawd damn bloody inarguable that this is bad inconsistency… saying “oh well you’re using it how it’s not intended” - how do you even know that first of all? The manual (certainly in more ways than one with Cubase) does not spell out all the details. And secondly, how it’s intended to be used or whether it’s being properly used is irrelevant. it is still bad inconsistency

Can we all hug now? I’d appreciate it.

I’m trying to understand with a view to filing a bug report, but when I got here:

I don’t understand what you are comparing.

After further testing, it appears indeed that when Keep Current Project Active is checked on the Backup dialog while Remove Unused Files is also checked, the files are also removed from the active project we are doing the Backup from, and not only that, but the active project also gets saved in the process, causing the files to be missing even when we close and open the project again. The only way to recover the files would be to import them manually from the Audio folder.

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Can someone write a simple sequence for a report?

Hi Steve, thanks for inຊuiring,

The difference is.

1.) Removes unused files outside of Project A AFTER and IN project B is created.

2.) Removes unused files starting with Project A then creates B with those files already gone…

it might not be a bug, but the inconsistency level deserves “bug” imo

@kapzz but two sequences of steps are not the same, so I don’t understand what the bug is.

A simple repro would suffice, if there’s a bug it will get likely get fixed, barring unusual circumstance (like having to rewrite the entire application)

The steps are exactly the same beyond checking ‘Keep Current Project Active’.

Is that the difference you are pointing out?