DDP vs realtime montage playback - Master section FX missing.?

I’m hearing a notable audio difference between the DDP image I create when played back in Steinberg’s DDP player v1.5.0 build 18 and the actual montage used to create the image. If I bypass WL’s Master Section FX, this then seems to sound ‘closer’ to DDP playback.

What I hear is a small drop in level and losing the (+1.0dB) top end EQ boost, on the DDP output.

So, even though I believe I’ve double-checked everything, have obviously missed some little step or button to engage, that ensures I include Master Section FX when rendering out the DDP.

I have just two plugins there BTW - Sonimus Burnley 73 (with minimal tweaks) and an SSL X-Limit to catch any peaks.

Both WL and the DDP player are using the same audio device/outputs (Steinberg UR44) and monitors of course.

Any clues please folks, as to what I should ‘triple’ check before starting the render once more.?

Many thanks.! (Specs in profile signature, system 1)

Bob

Import the DDP in WaveLab.
Then use the Synchronized Tab Playback feature to evaluate the difference between the imported DPP and the original montage.

Thanks @PG1 - will give that a go tomorrow

Ok, just trying to check this over now @PG1

I have imported the DDP image into a separate tab. My original montage is present and correct. I’ve activated Synchronised Tab Playback on the transport bar.

Now, one thing the online manual isn’t helping with in this workflow, is how do I compare A/B correctly between the two without the DDP image playing through the Master Section inserts (effectively again).? I want to hear that as is comparing it to the montage that should sound with the Master Section FX…

Maybe I’m missing a workflow tip. Is this possible.?

Will I simply have to keep bypassing MS FX whenever listening to the DDP tab, turning them back on when switching over to the montage tab…?

Many thanks.

PS:- am ‘out of office’ for now - back later in the afternoon

Hi

Activate the little ‘star’ at the bottom right of the DDP montage … that will bypass the master section

Don’t forget about the Null Test track feature which was designed in part to compare rendered audio to live playback with ease, as long as you don’t use the Master Section. I use Null Test track feature all the time to make sure renders are accurate to what I am hearing on playback.

And as I’ve stated before, I think for Audio Montage work the Master Section is avoidable, recommend to avoid, and a recipe for confusion and issues when used. I don’t use it and it prevents a lot of potential issues and headaches for me.

There are ways to resample if needed that don’t involve the Resampler in the Master Section and allow for better quality control and checking at every step of the process.

IMO, the Master Section workflow is just clumsy and asking for trouble.

Many thanks @Paul_Rat_Blakey .! That was exactly what I needed…

Now, having tried this out, the bigger point is I’ve found the imported DDP file is different sounding to the montage playback, as described in my OP.

With Justin P’s input above, I’m going to go back and review a couple of his ‘workflow’ YT videos… see where I may be going wrong…

Thanks Justin - point taken; because, as you might read above, with Paul’s help I have now confirmed there is a real issue I’m having with getting the MS inserts to render properly into the DDP file…

Am going to dive into a couple of your YT videos on this, to help me along.

Hi
FWIW, I would always render a montage first and then use that render/s to create the DDP.

I wouldn’t ‘trust’ a FX render direct to a DDP creation but that’s just me.

Ok, thanks for your patience - but that still ‘puzzles’ me a little.!

So when ‘rendering’ a montage, Master Section FX is taken into account.? And why is that different to what I’m doing when ‘creating’ the DDP straight from that montage.? Is this the case where Master Section FX (in your view) are not to be ‘trusted’.? Hence the ‘two-step’ process…

Presumably I’ll have to set up all my markers again on the montage rendered file, in order to be ready for a DDP creation run…

Sorry, brain fog is not letting me get something here…

Nope … not necessary as you can create a new ‘custom montage’:

Is this the case where Master Section FX (in your view) are not to be ‘trusted’.? Hence the ‘two-step’ process…

Well a DDP creates a file set in the process … not just a rendered file. There’s a bit going on under the hood and the tech behind that is kind of old.

That said, I’m sure there are tons of users who successfully render straight to a DDP.

I actually use the master section all the time so that in itself isn’t a ‘trust’ factor.

Ok… that’s promising…

Going back to your previous post - I thought a montage ‘render’ simply creates one long file, the length of my individual songs, all together.? Is that OK.? If I import that into a ‘duplicate custom’ montage, the markers will still apply themselves correctly.?

And, to be clear - does rendering a montage include all Master Section FX or not.?

This is the bit where my original reported problem is puzzling me - the fact (now confirmed) that the DDP image file created is different sounding to the original montage playback… I’ve not established why that should be.

Master section processing depends on this option.

Yes - thanks @PG1 absolutely made sure this is NOT checked.!

Thanks all, for all the help/advice/tips here… something is still not ‘clicking’ with me and the issue remains. Sigh.

After all this, am going to go back to StudioOne and it’s ‘project page’ - I’ve just got to get on now and get some output to my boss.

I’ll maybe circle back another time (after viewing a couple of Justin’s videos.!)

Bob

No. That would be terrible and a non-starter for me. With the method I use, you only set up the montage once, only create markers and enter the titles once, only have to render one time with plugins active (which can take time) and then all future renders go super fast because the plugin processing is already baked in. Any eventual master files you render are correctly named and flush with metadata (or CD-Text) because again, you only enter the info and do the detail work one time and that carries over to downstream montages.

It’s a lot in writing but it’s super easy, fast, and foolproof.

There are often multiple ways to do the same thing in WaveLab so my way is not the best way or the only way, but it’s a method that has worked for me for many years without any headaches, stress, rendering errors, or other problems. It’s so automatic I don’t even think about it now:

  1. Create your master montage at the native sample rate of your choice.

  2. Dial in all audio processing, using Clip Gain, Clip Envelope Automation, Clip Effects, Track Effects (not often used for me), and Montage Output Effects. Create markers, name them, etc. All this stuff will carry over downstream.

There is no need to use the Master Section which can be tricky to save/load with your montage, requires too much babysitting, and in my opinion is not a good option. I keep the Master Section hidden and don’t use it other than for 1 Playback Processing plugin that always stays inserted. If you’re used to a “normal” DAW, the Master Section will infuriate you.

  1. Render the master montage using “Whole Montage” as the Render Source to a new floating point file (don’t use any dithering yet) at the same sample rate as the source montage and then Save it of course as a new montage. There are settings in the Render Ribbon Tab that will carry over all your markers, marker names, and other details. Essentially, you end up with a a 1:1 rendered version of what you have dialed in. This is where you can use the Null Test Track option in your source montage to compare the render to live playback to make sure what you get is what you expected. With 3rd party plugins combined with potential user error, there are no guarantees so checking the rendered result of your plugin processing is essential.

You don’t need to do any extra work to the newly rendered montage other than give it a name and save it.

  1. From here, you can do a number of things such as render WAV files of each song/track as a 24-bit native sample rate WAV, but remember to insert a dither plugin last in the Montage Output of the newly created montage.

  2. To get down to lower sample rates, I do this outside of the Audio Montage. You could use the WaveLab Batch Processor, RX, Weiss Saracon, or whatever you prefer the sound of. Convert the continuous long file you first rendered of the entire montage down to 44.1k and 32-bit (or 64-bit float).

  3. Going back to the montage with the processing baked in and the only plugin running live is the dither plugin, use “Customized Duplicate Montage” and point WaveLab to the floating point 44.1k file. It will crate a new montage at 44.1k with all your markers in tact and all you have to do now is change the live dither plugin from 24-bit to 16-bit and then save the montage.

  4. From here you can render 16-bit/44.1k WAV files of each song/track, reference mp3 files, a DDP etc.

This way, all your master formats from hi-res WAV, CD quality WAV, reference mp3s, DDP, vinyl master, cassette master, etc. are all totally cohesive and error free because you only have to enter the details once, and you bake in the plugin processing early on at the highest and best resolution possible, and despite have a few “children” montages of the parent montage, you always have one “Master” version to go back to for any revisions, or to create the vinyl master, etc.

Again, it’s a lot in writing but I find it to be the best way to get error free masters, with ability to check things along the way.

As Paul mentioned, I would absolutely never in my life render a DDP file from a master montage with plugins running and at a higher sample rate than 44.1k.

It can be done but it’s a short-sighted approach an an invitation for errors. I prefer to think bigger picture to avoid problems, and create a workflow that works for all scenarios, including albums with gapless transitions and live albums with continuous audio which I didn’t mention earlier, but that’s a big reason for rendering the full montage as one long file first. It helps mitigate rendering errors on projects with overlapping/gapless audio. Cold starts with immediate audio and hard stops are an invitation for non-sample accurate renders creating ticks, pops, and glitches at the transition point, so the full audio montage render solves this.

I haven’t done any of those livestreams in a few years now and while the main concept of it all still holds true, WaveLab 12 and now 13 have some nice smaller improvements that make the process even smoother and easier.

I tried Studio One and while it’s not terrible and can be simple, I found it to be too much of a toy and not a serous mastering tool but it gets the job done for those who need to do mastering tasks a few times per year.

Wow… @Paid_Steinberg_Bot_4 you are a gem.! Many, many thanks for taking the time on all that detail for me…

Very. Much. Appreciated.

In the meantime:- I’ve been back to StudioOne. Loaded up my assets (markers are automatically set around each clip), edited the Artist and Track Title info. I set the gaps between tracks to ‘0’ (so far around 10 minutes). I then added my couple of plugins (in the Master inserts) and did my bit of ‘sweetening/levelling’ that I wanted applied uniformly across all tracks.

It was a live concert I was preparing - a 55min show, needing continuous play. It was for internal purposes (a promotions company) only, nothing critical. One file of the whole gig already ‘mixed’, which I’d previously cut up into separate songs. I was tasked to sweeten/level adjust and make a DDP ‘reference’ of these (as if an album), ready for CD burning as and when… I was to output a certain collection of songs together (MP3’s), for review (later task).

By now, we’re up to maybe a half-hour / 40 mins.

After checking against other material, I settled on what I’d achieved and created a DDP image. Loaded image into Steinberg DDP Player. Compared against StudioOne source - all perfectly fine.

Decided I would do one more round of ‘sweetening’. Repeated the process and made a second DDP.

I reckon, with all the listening checks etc, I was now at about an hour and a half. Done.

This is where I wanted to be with WaveLab at 10:00 am yesterday.! And I’m sure that’s all perfectly possible inside there. Yet, here we are…

I see a lot of value in your workflow - for multiple deliverables of same material in differing formats etc. You are also covering yourself nicely/efficiently for when the client comes back and wants a few ‘tweaks’ made etc.

When I have more time and other jobs come in I will open up WaveLab and review all the fab workflow help you’ve described… Or, for practice, just have fun with some dummy material, as the mood takes me.!

That’s me.!

I want to love WL though; I’ve chosen to support PG along the way because I think he’s a genius and a thoroughly good man. I’ve been buying updates since WL6 days… :grinning_face:

But have rarely needed to get properly stuck in to it and learn it properly.

Then when I come once again to ‘give it a try’, things like yesterday happen.

Every day’s a school day, as they say. I’ve bookmarked this thread for future retrieval.

Thanks again,

Bob