Direct Routing Doesn't use Pan-Law

Why is this please, Fredo?
I leave mine set to Equal Power, which has always seemed to be the more sensible option unless trying to emulate the sound of a particular console or precisely copy a previous project’s setting…

When using ADM, the incoming signals (from a mic or instrument) are routed within the soundcard (as in not passing through Nuendo) in order to provide no latency monitoring.
So Totalmix mimics/copies the routing and levels of Nuendo. Therefore the Pan law should be the same as in Nuendo since a mic is a mono input, which normally is routed to a stereo bus or output.

Fredo

Lydiot,

Here’s what’s happening.
I think -we both- were getting confused by the way we measure levels.

As said in my first reaction, a stereo track (direct) routed into a mono buss or group is not subjected to Pan Law.
Only the downmix attenuation (6dB) is applied. (summing two corrolated signals result in a 6dB increase of level)

The mistake made is that by default the metering is set to Post-panner.
When switching the metering to Post Fader, or input, you’ll see that the levels are not affected by Pan law.

With the meters to Post-Panner, the effect of the panner (at output of the channe) becomes visible.
These effects are:

-9dB => equal Power => -6dB
-9dB => PanLaw -6dB => -9dB
-9dB => PanLaw -4.5dB => -7.5dB
-9dB => PanLaw -3dB => -6dB
-9dB => PanLaw -0dB => -3dB

So direct routing, be it to a group or buss, is not affected by Pan Law.
Only the standard downmix levels are applied.
Whenever a panner involved, Pan Law is applied.

HTH
Fredo

Fredo,

I understand what you’re saying, but it isn’t what I’m seeing.

I’m going to try to do a screen capture and show you, because what you’re describing is different - again; unless I’ve made some strange mistake…

My screenshot attached.


Fredo

The first video has been uploaded and it shows the actual project I was working on. All of the irrelevant tracks have been hidden. The video shows:

  1. basic settings and routing;
  • tracks left to right are;
    – Track on which the deliverable is recorded (with iZotope Insight inserted)
    – Source stereo audio track with signal generator at -20, it’s sent to
    – Stereo group with direct routing to
    – Deliverable mono output
    – Dummy output receiving the first track. It should be of no consequence.

  • current pan law (Equal power)

  1. I close all except iZotope Insight which is on the record track.
  2. Change pan law back and forth between -6 and Equal Power.

Note how there are no changes on the target track in iZotope Insight


Link: - YouTube

Here is the second video. Same type of deal.

This is the project started from scratch just to test this. The two sources are either a stereo audio track or a stereo group (both with the generator on them), then going into a mono output.

As you can see, the value in iZotope Insight (inserted) on the output varies according to pan-law settings, which it did not do in the previous example.

See, here’s my problem;

This is a fairly important part of the software, we’re talking basic routing. And after a whole week not a single person from Steinberg has chimed in. The only thing they had to do was state exactly what the expected behavior of the software is, what we should see. Sooooo easy to answer.

Does anyone else have any input on the videos or anything else?

I’m reading this thread with interest.

hi,

your first video, is right. nuendo’s direct routing acts as inline, so only the first slot defines the routing config and uses a panner. the rest of the slots are a patch bay out based on the configuration of the first slot.

the second video, i cant confirm and is weird. pan law takes place in a mono to stereo balance panner, and in your video there isnt one visually, so there must be one somewhere we dont see. it would be great if u either upload the project with no audio, or try again from emty project, creating only the tracks and routing the way u describe it.

So they don’t use a panner is what you’re saying? And where in the manual is this clearly stated (assuming you read it there)?

Or maybe someone from Steinberg can tell us how it should work. That’d be nice.

1- no
2- everything is well documented already, the only unclear thing is the fact that pan law is a setting that affects mono to stereo balance panner behavior at center position. This means the actual panner or any section of the software that uses such configuration. One example is the mono to 5.1 old panner in y mode.

The way DR works Its documented in the direct routing section.
The pan law is a long standing room acoustics standard

So I think I apparently skipped a step which explains it all.

So let me ask you this:

Does it really make sense? I mean, you sit down at an application and you have the means to use Direct Routing, and only the first slot applies Pan-Law. I thought the whole purpose of it all was to be able to use this for stems etc, but that’s partially out the window now depending on which Pan-Law one wishes to use. Wouldn’t it make more sense to apply any principle of dealing with summing signals to all signal paths instead of seemingly randomly choose NOT to apply it to some (because there sure is NO visual indication that the remaining slots are different from the first in this regard)?

valid but redundant question. the intentions and practical use of direct routing is in the manual.
file a feature request if u want although in practice i dont want 8 panners per track. if and when u need it u can use symmetrical outs to the groups u want to have per different out configuration. that would lead more tracks to less out which makes more sense for mixing

How is it a redundant question?

But you wouldn’t necessarily need 8 panners. If the logic is that we get to send a copy of our audio stream from the Direct Outputs to wherever we want, and all of these outputs have one fader which all outputs conform to, it would be logical to assume that whatever panning is being done in the “first step” is also followed, wouldn’t you agree? (I’m talking about stereo now). If we set the level in one place for all subsequent outputs, why would the same not apply for the pan? So just have one panner, just as it is now, but have that apply to all subsequent outputs. As a matter of fact, that’s exactly what it does: If you have several outputs going to stereo targets they all pan according to the first slot.

Why should a stereo output from slot one into a mono target work differently from an output from the other slots? I have not seen a reason for this in the manual (but feel free to quote it).

What are “symmetrical outs”? I never heard this term.