Hey Brian. That’s a lot of good info. Steve’s solution of using Davinici to make a video and importing a MIDI seemed like a much simpler solution. Is there a reason that you’re exploring all these different and more complicated ways of syncing audio to Dorico? I don’t need to multitrack in Dorico, I use Cubase, but I do want to be able to reference audio while I’m transcribing and arranging.
Also, it would seem that the tech is already inside Dorico: audio can be played through video. Tempos can be harvested from MIDIs. It would seem like a relatively simple thing to implement a feature of importing audio without video, and importing tempo maps without other MIDI information.
Another feature request that would make me an instant purchaser: If audio and MIDI tempos could be imported and sync with playback, AND there was a key command for half speed playback, this would make Dorico the ultimate transcribing tool on the market. I imagine that a lot of professional users transcribe music and that catering to that segment would be worth the resources IMO.
Daniel has stated clearly in the forums that ReWire as a technology is not all that great and that they would be working towards a proper implementation of these matters with Cubase, if I recall correctly.
I wish Steinberg would put its efforts toward making the industry-standard facilities (like Rewire and ARA) more robust rather then trying to push proprietary solutions.
Here’s the thing. As someone who’s used Bidule for several years, it’s really no trouble at all. It’s like my favorite pocket knife, and it goes with me in every DAW I use. Because I use the tool often and know my way around it…it doesn’t strike me as being ‘complex’ at all.
I sometimes come upon situations where I want a quick way to track some simple audio files along side a score without moving to a new app or workflow. It takes less than a minute to set it up and just ‘do it’. Even in cases where it takes a moment to build some logic to get a bidule working, we can always ‘save’ it and use it again and again. In this case, all it takes is a ‘sync generator’ bidule, one ‘audio file play back or record’ bidule, a simple + operator, and a UI slider that sends a range of integers when moved (after monitoring what Dorico sends as a lead in, I’ve learned to simply set the slider range for whatever sample rate one is using…alignment is simple from there: I.E. At 44.1khz, the Dorico lead-in is usually going to be around 40,000 samples).
The rendition above has logic for both playback and recording all in the same bidule. If I enable the recorder portion of the bidule, all I have to do is ‘click play’ in Dorico, and it starts recording whatever audio I have routed into the bidule. I’ve got a nice routing matrix and mixer built into the bidule as well…so 32 channel mix downs to a single stereo file are possible.
To sync a wave for playback. It’s not much to it really, and it’s all wired and ready to go in any bidule instance I choose. It’s good to make a stereo mix recording, or with some minor adjustments I could even dump each of the 32 audio channels into independent tracks/files in one go if I really wanted. I threw a sample monitor in there to save me some simple math by hand in the middle of a work session. I can just look at the ‘min’ value and see how many samples Dorico sends before it hits bar 0. From there I can tweak the slider to make fine adjustments so everything aligns to Dorico’s transport as it should.
Once my logic was made for all that above, I ‘grouped’ the circuit into a single bidule, added any ‘optional’ fancy UI or remote control elements I wanted, and saved it. Inside the group, before I built the little UI you can see above, My Dorico Tracker Bidule looks like this, and it didn’t take me but a few minutes to build and stash it away for quick and easy use any time I need it:
For ever-more it only takes me three clicks of the mouse to pull up the bidule. I can put it in a VST mixer chain to record off the Dorico Mixer, or I can run it from inside a VSTi instance to record things raw, or ‘play’ audio files into the Dorico Mixer. I’ve already got it set to take account for Dorico’s lead in samples, but if I need to change that I just tweak that ‘sample offset’ slider to align the file so it syncs properly (in a tracking DAW, we’d get scissors, and chop out the lead-in, then nudge it into place…instead, I just move a single slider). Another click or two to hook it up and load or name the file it’ll be playing/recording. There’s a lot of scripting-like power user things one can do through such a tool, but it’s visual object based up front (one can also code and compile bidules as well, or slip in compiled VST/au plugins, etc).
I could go on for many pages on the sorts of situations where it really is nice to be able to snoop low level data streams and tweak them in real time.
As for trying to run a tracking app under Dorico with a 3rd party ReWire hack, I personally don’t need that much audio editing power while working in Dorico. I was just curious about seeing if I could make it work. I came ‘very close’ to making things work with Reaper, and at some point in the future, all it would take to make it (or another DAW of choice) a powerful multi-tracking add-on would be a little more flexibility in Dorico’s mixing matrix, and a way to send a sync signal (MTC/MMC for instance) to one’s device/port of choice. Given the right combination of 3rd party tools with the right settings, it’s probably ‘already possible’ [I could even dig out the bidule dev kit and create a compiled bidule that generates a kind of fake MTC signal if I really wanted it bad enough)…it’s just not worth the trouble to seek out ‘a way’ for me at this point.
Steinberg has their own system-link protocol, which will be ideal for we Cubase users at some point. Until then, I was just ‘curious’. I could see such a work-flow being perfect for a lot of Dorico Users who want to do 99% of their work in Dorico, and occassionaly tack on a tracking side-project; so,I gave it a try.
Just a few examples of things I do with Bidule…so you can see that it’s not always a ‘more complicated’ methodology than it might seem up front:
The main things I currently use Bidule with Dorico in are (Note, I’ve a registered VST/VSTi version, and rarely mess with Rewire unless I need some 32bit stuff [or whatever else might not play nice with Steinberg hosts and end up black-listed] I’d like to bridge off into its own domain):
Transcribing. It takes less than a minute to sync up whatever audio file someone sends me that they want transcribed. It’s not ‘pretty’, and I do a little simple math to figure out where in the audio file it’s best to have it ‘start playing’, but honestly…it is as easy as pie. Not very ‘complicated’ at all.
Freezing processing/memory intensive plugins into an audio track when/if I need those resources for more/new live virtual instruments. I have a few plugins that darn near max out my system on their own. At first I’ll just use lighter instruments, but sometimes I want to work with a better plugin that wouldn’t leave much headroom for ‘the rest of the band/orchestra’. No problem…I can make such a track from inside the Bidule instance in no time flat, then disable the resource hogging plugin.
Occasionally I want to make a quick vocal or instrumental track on the spot. I might not be at a good point in the work-flow to bother with stopping the project, exporting things, and trying to set it all up again in a new environment. It’s very easy to just open any ole audio recording app, let it roll, start Dorico, and play/sing along with it while wearing some headphones to give a little isolation from the mix. Once I’ve done that, it’s quite easy to patch the file into a Dorico hosted Bidule instance and get it synced up. Working it into the overall mix isn’t very difficult either.
Correct buggy or incomplete hardware. Ever had a MIDI keyboard that with age doesn’t have an even velocity response across all the keys anymore? Maybe that G3 ‘plunks’ out at ‘full velocity’ no matter how ‘soft’ you tap it. Well, until you can get the thing to a shop, or sort out time to clean/repair it yourself, Bidule can sniff that bad note out, analyze the velocity of ‘notes around’ it, and somewhat repair your situation.
How many times have you ever spent a nice chunck of change on something like a pedal, bank of MPC pads, or whatever, only to find it has some innate quirk in the firmware that would otherwise force you to bin the piece of gear? Got a nice $200 set of piano pedals that are wired backwards for your brand new key-board controller, which has no firmware fix to invert the signal? No sweat…Bidule can invert that CC64 event for ya. Wanna teach your regular qwerty computer keyboard, or your iPad or Android tablet to do a lot of controller type things in a performing situation? No problem…you get HID and OSC hooks to create that sort of thing. Controller possibilities are nearly endless…do with a single slider things that used to take you dozens of them. Transform controllers with no, or only a few configuration presets into something that has unlimited banks and presets…which can be called up a myrid of ways…via pedals, switches, breath, whatever you have at hand to tie into the matrix.
Want an effect chain that gets complicated, and needs side-chaning and other features that your favorite DAW might not support, or maybe you’ve just ‘run out’ of effect slots? Again…you’re covered.
Imagine you have a very complex setup for all of your favorite instruments. It mixes and matches dozens of plugins, as well as channels over multitembral plugins. Loading all the mess in Dorico alone can take a good half hour or more, let alone considering moving the project to other apps. With Bidule, I can host different plugins under the same MIDI port and channel bounce or key-switching configurations all I like. Export and import…don’t have to sit there and load all my stuff in the target app one by one…don’t need as large of a template collection for each individual app, and so on. I can load this same instrument and effect setup into almost ANY DAW or Scoring package out there in mere seconds. Imagine being able to create a single ‘solo violin’ that is actually a mixed mesh of all your favorite plugins. Maybe you’ve got HALion, Kontakt, ARIA, and Vienna Ensemble stuff. Sometimes you want to layer it up and use it ‘together’ from a single Dorico stave. Bidule lets one invent his own key-switches, program changes, channel bounces, key-board splits, CC controllers and such…reroute the MIDI stream nearly anywhere you’d ever want to send it…while also transforming it in real time when needed. It’s also ready to go in my other DAWs that have full VST automation capabilities for even further and ultra precise ‘mix-down’ time refinements right there in the DAW’s native VST automation lanes.
For articulations and style changes that I use often, I can begin to automate a lot more things that currently aren’t possible from Dorico alone unless you are one to get locked deep into something like LUA scripting for HALion 6. I.E. I can snoop and use tempo information from a ‘sync extractor’ bidule to have Bidule automatically run some simple if/then/or logic to choose between martele, sauteli, spiccato, or staccato based on A: The tempo, B: A dot living over a note, C: presence or absence of slurs/tenutos/etc. These choices can be very different based on tempo, style, and dynamic range. We can already manually tack this stuff into a score ‘one note at a time’ in Dorico without tools like Bidule…but with it…one can make a huge leap in the automatic translation and playback of a score. Furthermore, I’m not limited to the articulation choices bound in a single instrument plugin/slot/channel. I could pick pizzicato from Vienna Ensemble, an Arco from Garritan, a tremolo from HALion, etc. I can make it choose different things based on the tempo and dynamic range of the incoming MIDI stream, and much more. I can also make other simple ‘style’ markers that get sent as CC/PC/Key-switches/etc. which change the MIDI flow throughout Bidule, and send it all exactly where I want it. I don’t have to ‘wait’ for future versions of a Master App to get ‘channel bouncing’ from a stave, or wedge in my own playback ‘interpretive’ routines for each individual note in a piece. I can use arpegiators and such to make my own ornaments when a Master app can’t interpret them, fudge in things like micro-tuning, and the list goes on. I don’t have to be a ‘programmer’ fluent at working with various ‘compiler’ packages to build and test ideas either.
It’s a bare bones sampler and synth engine as well. It really comes in handy for triggering odd sound effects, or making quick samples of real percussion instruments and throwing them into the mix. If I’m already geared up for it, it can even be quicker than loading up something like Groove Agent or HALion and setting up a new percussion kit. Sometimes it’s already part of the flow…and dawg gone easy to load the sample and trigger it from a stave…easy peasy.
I don’t disagree with the sentiment, but Rewire (Propellerhead?) and ARA (Celemony?) are ‘proprietary’ as well.
I’m fine with Steinberg’s system-link, or whatever works. Perhaps each of these competing systems should make ‘plugin’ versions of their bridges that would be optional for consumers to work into their chosen DAW. This way a Dorico will come ready to sync to Cubase/Nuendo and share audio/MIDI streams out of the box, and if a user wants ReWire, ARA, whatever…they could run that bridge as a VST/i plugin. Or, they could make an optional system-link plugin that can be run in a third party DAW, etc. Make it modular, and let the user choose what works best for his needs.
Yes - please (fingers crossed) make the solution compatible with the (majority?) of us not using Cubase as our DAW (in my writing for tv world, for example, I’ve found many, many fellow Logic Pro users, for example)…
I, too, have been trying to experiment with syncing Dorico to audio exported (in my case) from my Logic session but need help! It does seem like (for the time being) the easiest solution is:
bounce the audio from Logic.
Also export from Logic a MIDI region that encompasses the length of the audio that was bounced.
Import this MIDI region into Dorico (so I can retain any tempo changes from the session and it will ultimately sync up).
In my case, I’ve then opened iMovie, created a project using a photo as backdrop and with the previously bounced audio, and then “shared” (exported) it as a “file”.
HERE’S where I run into the problem: I can’t seem to save it in a file format that Dorico recognizes when I then try to drag the resulting video file in Play Mode (I keep getting the message in Dorico “File Format Not Supported”). I’ve looked at the recommended compatible Steinberg file formats, but it’s hard to know if the defaults iMovie offers exactly coincide (other than being able to specify it be saved “vaguely” from iMovie as mp4 or mov, both of which (in some variation) are SUPPOSED to be compatible.
So has anyone tried the above method or can anyone suggest a way to save a “fake” video file (containing the audio I want to sync with Dorico) in a format that Dorico will actually definitely import (on a Mac)?
One final question: if I then write music in Dorico using NotePerformer, WILL it actually sync up? (presuming I start the video at the project start?) (can’t remember if there’s some delay compensation to allow for the built-in delay Note Performer requires, etc., at present).
Actually, I think I managed to get the above to work after much experimentation. I’ve noticed that when I tried attaching a video file directly to the Flow in Setup, I was consistently getting that it didn’t recognize the file format. However, when I dragged it directly to a specific spot in the timeline in Play Mode, it finally worked and it’s gloriously synced, even when using NotePerformer. Very nice (though the Dorico team may want to check to make sure the Video import functionality is consistent throughout the program, for what it’s worth)…
With tempo maps my problem has always been the opposite way around… what I’d really like to see is the ability to export the tempo map from Dorico alongside the instrument MIDI information so I can use it in Cubase.
One of my biggest pain points up to now when exporting MIDI from the other notation program beginning with “S” has been the fact that if I have a lot of tempo changes in a piece I’ve found myself having to create an audio “click track” from a separate instrument (usually a wood block or similar), import it into Cubase and the use that to manually recreate the tempo track by hand, which can be very time consuming.
It would be simply awesome to be able to use freely accel and rall or other tempo changes within Dorico and then have them automatically translated into an exportable tempo track that I can use in Cubase alongside the standard MIDI data.
On the audio import question, when doing arranging/orchestration work from audio I’ve often just created blank video files (audio only) for this purpose, although having a dedicated feature for this would be pretty sweet too.
Personally I use Sony Vegas (or Vegas Movie Studio which is cheaper) to do all my video work in. Just import the audio and create a blank/black video track, or import a blank image from Photoshop or similar and export.
