Dorico 5?

[dan_kreider]

Perhaps, but that is increasingly what users will demand. The technology is there.

[Thurisaz]

@trumpetjazz,
If you need a high-end library for jazz brass instruments, then worth to look at
https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/big-band-horns

Duplex Saxophones

There is an Expression Maps set for the Duplex Saxophones by @FredGUnn, here:

Orchestral Tools Duplex Saxophones Expression Maps

So I finally got around to making some Expression Maps for the OT Duplex Saxophones library. I’m not particularly satisfied how these came out, but I’m done fiddling with them for now so thought I’d go ahead and share. To test them out I wrote a brief sax quartet arrangement of a fairly obscure Sahib Shihab tune called Rue de la Harpe. Here’s the Blue library: … and here’s the Red: A few notes: All CCs are just the default when loaded into SINE. One of the advantages of SINE is that you…

Another good sounding jazz brass instruments are those:
http://chrishein.net/horns-complete.html

Most probably those libraries will fit your needs, as they are jazz oriented. You’ll be able to apply the swing playback without any issues.

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

[Janus]

@dan_kreider

The technology is there.

Except it isn’t ( why else would there be so many threads about playback shortcomings?)

[Thurisaz]

Hi @dan_kreider and @Janus,

@dan_kreider

Perhaps, but that is increasingly what users will demand. The technology is there.

I completely agree with Dan on his statement. Nowadays we are having tons of amazing sounding libraries, we should be able to use them in a Scoring Software like Dorico in their full potential.
Very often film music composers relate only on the VIs due to low budget that doesn’t allow hiring of live musicians. I know that Cubase is there for film scoring, but for me Dorico is far more intuitive and powerful tool for composing, arranging and orchestrating music.

@Janus

Except it isn’t ( why else would there be so many threads about playback shortcomings?)

Janus, we’ll see what NotePerformer 4 will bring to the world… Staffpad already has the needed playback technology. Actually currently Staffpad has the best sounds out there…

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

[dan_kreider]

Very well: “users perceive that the technological barriers are no longer insurmountable as they once were, and nobody audiates anymore, so users will increasingly clamor for it.”

[Janus]

Personally, I’d never expect playback to replicate my inner ear. But perhaps that’s just a reflection of my classical background, where there must always be space for the performer to interpret.

[Thurisaz]

Well, nothing can compare with the live performance and the personal interpretation of every musician, no doubt.
But keep in mind that writing a concert music (where the flavor that every musician adds to the piece is of key importance) and writing film music (where the music should be the soul of the scene) are completely different processes. The second one very rarely allows session musicians to make any interpretations. Well, if you are someone like Hans Zimmer, who can afford to hire the world’s best musicians for scoring a movie, then he will even allow them to not only do interpretations, but improvisations, too.
So, most probably the technology would never be able to replicate the concert music, but most of the times it fits the film and multimedia needs.

Best wishes,
Thurisaz

[Michel_Edward]

@Janus

Personally, I’d never expect playback to replicate my inner ear. But perhaps that’s just a reflection of my classical background, where there must always be space for the performer to interpret.

one issue is that even composers of concert (ie: “classical”) music are more and more being asked to supply convincing demos when they submit works to orchestras.
And the more convincing the demo, the higher your chances.

Orchestra boards and conductors are becoming lazy and can’t be bothered to just read a score these days.

[FredGUnn]

@Thurisaz

There is an Expression Maps set for the Duplex Saxophones by @FredGUnn, here:

Heh, I spent some time on these, but don’t use them myself as they sound like kazoos, LOL!

@trumpetjazz

I am aware of NotePerformer. It’s awesome but it does some really weird things when you try to play back big band parts in a swing style.

NP is completely unusable for jazz IMO. All of the phrasing is just totally wrong.

As primarily a saxophonist myself I’m biased, but I’ve never heard anything from any library that is really usable for saxophones. Personally, I use SWAM, but the Altos are particularly crummy IMO. The Bari is probably the best of the bunch, like this fake Harry Carney playing “Agra” straight out of Dorico with no MIDI editing at all:

Halion saxes are pretty terrible. The Soprano Sax in the default Playback Template is particularly awful as the “Soulful Soprano Sax” has a delay programmed into it. The delay has to be manually eliminated or it’s obviously unusable.

I do think the Ample Sound Bass Upright is pretty impressive if you need a jazz bass.

[laughreyg]

NP’s suitability for jazz, while not great, can sound good in the right type of puece. I wrote a traditional- style big band piece using Dorico’s swing function and jazz articulations. I got a not perfect, certainly, but quite acceptable result- Better than i could have with my Chris Hein Horns, for example. Surely the days of ‘movie score quality’ sounds for notation programs are not too far away?

[FredGUnn]

The biggest problem with NP for jazz is that its AI has no idea how to phrase like a jazz musician. NP has to have all the slurs written in or it assumes everything is articulated. Sure, high school level arrangements often have the slurs written in as the arranger can’t assume the players understand the phrasing, but at a pro level these slurs are often just unnecessary clutter that only serve to slow down sightreading, so they are usually omitted in a typical pro level swing arrangements.

Here’s Benny Carter’s great 4-part sax soli on I’m Coming Virginia:

Here’s NP’s rendition playing Benny’s parts straight out of Dorico without any MIDI editing:

Here’s SWAM playing the exact same thing straight out of Dorico without any MIDI editing using my maps:

Obviously SWAM isn’t great either, but NP is simply unusable IMO. Obviously, NP is pretty remarkable at classical interpretation so it would be amazing to have a jazz AI engine as an option in the next NP version.

[DanMcL]

Instead of more AI or deeper samples I think what vendors are missing is just simply good plugins. With present day technology AI will fail spectacularly when it fails. With libraries most vendors provide deep samples and honestly poor plugins.

Ivory is an example of one that gets both right - great samples and a really deep plugin which works beautifully. The result is a library which always sounds good. Even with the humanizing NP can’t remotely touch Ivory, which isn’t AI humanized.

[benwiggy]

@FredGUnn

NP has to have all the slurs written in or it assumes everything is articulated.

There is an easy fix to the Expression Map to make everything legato: find the Natural expression and change CC19 0 to 1.

[SampoKasurinen]

I assume you could also manually write that CC data in the CC -line? Jazz parts typically also have lot of things that are not legato, I was wondering if those will be affected if legato is always on?

[FredGUnn]

@benwiggy

There is an easy fix to the Expression Map to make everything legato: find the Natural expression and change CC19 0 to 1.

I honestly had never edited the NP map as I thought it was supposed to be left alone to let NP work its magic. It’s obviously now too legato, but it’s not too bad if I also change the legato notes setting to 90% and dial back the reverb.

[Candlebane]

It’s tough right? Might be my saxophone bias as well, but articulation and legato sounds miserable in these libraries. Tonguing is almost always too harsh and the consistency of tone note-to-note is terrible in every library I’ve tried.

We’re (saxophonists) to blame of course—but for the best of reasons. Since there’s little standard in what is an ideal sax sound, there’s no way to capture an archetypal sound. The best we can do is get sounds from pinnacle studio players. But it’ll never match my own sound or come super close to what I really want it to sound like. It’d be nice too if the high-end libraries would pull in jazz players for jazz sounds too, instead of classical folks who have a competent jazz sound. Berlin for instance, still sounds super classical, even on the hot settings. Of course, it could be the programming. Maybe the sampled players are jazz beasts. Just doesn’t seem like it…

[Candlebane]

Huh…that is a lot better.

[hamhm3]

Another thing you can do, rather than modify the NP Expression Map, is use the legato playing technique where you would have put the slurs, and then hide the playing technique text. That way you can have articulated notes where you need them, and legato notes where you need them. I can’t remember if the legato playing technique is already there or if you have to create it, but creating it if it isn’t there is easy, of course.

[FredGUnn]

@Candlebane

It’d be nice too if the high-end libraries would pull in jazz players for jazz sounds too, instead of classical folks who have a competent jazz sound.

Yeah, definitely! I don’t know all the guys that recorded Broadway Big Band, but Chris Karlic on Bari and Rafi Malkiel on Trombone certainly have great sounds. Unfortunately most libraries don’t hire top-level jazz players, so in general the sounds are very generic and devoid of any personality. It would take a lot of $$$, but it would be cool if some company actually took a working big band and recorded all the individual players. The marketing/branding deal would have to be substantial obviously for a big name artist, but would have the potential to be very cool.

(I’m completely biased of course, but if any VI developer reads this, the Christian McBride Big Band would be a great choice. We’ve won 3 Grammys for Best Large Jazz Ensemble, McB has a bunch more plus has the “big name” appeal, all of us in the sax section have different sounds, we’ve got one of the baddest lead trumpet players on the planet, etc.)