Dorico Elements 3.5 - Clef Crisis

Thank you so much.

What I have done is reimported the music from XML. This time taking care about the clefs in the source. I requested import to existing parts where possible. There are two parts. A third was created. I moved the notes into the proper parts and all is OK.

So I now have a working project.

However I am still mystified that there is no possibility of correcting the clef in the instrument if it is inconsistent between flows. This I guess needs to be raised with the programmers.

If you want to raise it, please supply a file that demonstrates the problem. Bugs are hard to track down if they can’t be reproduced.

Yes, I’m certain there will be a good explanation for the behaviour you have seen. If you can supply the problematic project I’d be glad to take a look.

Yes I’ll send a project file… I’ll cut it down to a reasonable minimum which will manifest the problem.

Now I am more experienced in Dorico I wonder whether I am exposing a bug or a ‘feature’. I can show what I mean through this simple example

I created a simple new project and used a brass template (three trombones). On the left you can see the bass clef that is assumed by Dorico for the trombone. I added 6 bars in 2/2 and filled each with the same notes, C3-C4 (middleC).

Using the clef palette I change the second bar to have Alto clef. Next the tenor clef was given to the third bar and so on until I changed the clef back to the bass clef in the sixth bar.

Notice that the octavo-basso treble clef and the ordinary treble clef show the notes in the same vertical position. The ordinary treble clef shows the notes correctly as C3-C4 but the octavo-basso clef (in bar 4) incorrectly shows the notes as C2-C3.

To my mind the result in bar 4 is surprising and potentially misleading. So I ask is this a ‘feature’ or a bug? If it is a feature please tell me why this design choice has been made.

See for instance Changing the clef in the Tenor staff does not shift an octave - #2 by pianoleo

This has been discussed at length in various topics. Please search.

Thank you again. I note your last sentence and can only say that
I did indeed search. The post you have flagged is interesting and it would have been helpful earlier in this series of contributions.

I appreciate that there are problems caused by VST interpretations and some habits of publishers. However as Dorico designers pride themselves in their adherence to solid principles and associated terminology it surprises me that all clefs would not be treated consistently.

In conclusion let’s close this thread accepting that whilst the problem is explained it is not resolved. It may be in due course. Accordingly I will watch the posted topics in the forum.

The tenor-G clef was implemented to work with the Tenor voice of the HALion library included with the original (and subsequent) Dorico release(s). As the development team saw users using other libraries that handled the Tenor voice differently, they made the clef more flexible. That seems a reasonable solution, not a bug.

(Suggesting mods close a thread once you have had the final word seems somewhat contrary to the purpose of a discussion board.)

Sorry about my suggested closure - I misunderstood protocol

The fact is that in most use cases, octave-transposed clefs don’t change anything. If a piccolo player or guitar player is presented with a regular treble clef, they’re not going to play an octave higher or lower than they normally would. Octave-transposed clefs are a matter of house style: some publishers use them; others don’t.

If you have Dorico Pro (or a file whose Notation Options have been altered in Dorico Pro) you can use octave clefs to actually mean play this an octave higher/lower than normal, and Dorico will respect this in playback. Generally speaking this is unorthodox notation whereas octave lines are more widely understood (and always affect playback in Dorico).

Yes I can see that the Notation Options (thank you pianoleo) on clefs will solve my problem. It has taken me a painful long time to get there. Sorry for the waste of time.

Though I still think the default should be to respect all octave indications.