Hi all, I’m making parts for a large ensemble work and my publisher has previously complained that Dorico seems to spread out the systems too much on some pages. I suspect there is some setting somewhere where I can adjust this?
In my current piece the parts are in A4 (6,5 mm rastral size) and when I have six or less systems in one frame the distance between them are approx 16 mm. But if there is seven or more systems Dorico spread them out across the whole page and there is suddenly at least 23 mm or more between the systems and this looks a bit strange. In previous pieces I have adjusted this manually but I suspect there is an easier way to do this globally. Is there a setting where I can specify how many systems I want in a frame before Dorico starts to spread them out on the whole page?
This is a quite complex topic: Dorico has a very good spacing engine, but you need to know which objects will be affecting staff spacing.
There are global settings in Layout options>Vertical spacing, and for an individual part like this one, the main settings will be the spacing between adjacent systems (inter-system gap), and the minimum inter-system gap with content (in Collision avoidance). I would really avoid manual tweaking as much as possible (and the more you learn about Dorico’s options, the further you can go!) There’s probably some rehearsal mark colliding with tempo markings on the last system of your picture which could explain why the spacing gets wider. You can change the avoid-collisions behavior in different aspects (globally through the Engraving options, granularly with the properties, disabling avoid collisions, or using the paragraph styles options…)
Of course, justification is another tool that needs to be understood to manage this vertical spacing correctly.
In any case, there should be a « global » solution that fits your needs. If you want more concrete answers, post a file
Thank you for your thorough explanation. This seems like a complicated topic indeed. I realize this is another part of the program I have to read up on. I was hoping for an easy fix but apparently there is probably not one for this. Bummer.
Would love to post a file but sadly that is quite difficult (for legal reasons) when the music is published (they own the rights and I’m not allowed to spread them, not even parts of the music).
I edited my post: it’s not complicated, it’s complex. Meaning it involves different simple things, that could interact one with the other. Don’t be scared, Dorico does this beautifully.
I was actually looking at your guide just before you posted it here! I think someone recommended this one in one of my earlier threads. Thank you for this!
I did try with some different setting but haven’t managed to get the result I want so far. But I think I need to understand more of the theory behind Doricos spacing engine first.
Your first frame is just under the initial default threshold of 60%, so Dorico doesn’t apply any vertical justification and just follows your minimum gaps settings. The second frame is over the threshold and gets justified.
Ok. I think I start to understand how this works now. So there is no setting for number of systems allowed but rather % values in the vertical justification settings?
If I change the first setting to just above what I have on the second page it does work now (it doesn’t spread out the systems on the whole page). Don’t know what I missed when I tried these settings the first time.
I guess I have to play around with these settings and maybe I need to have different % on different parts. I’ll try them out. Thanks.
Well, your mileage my differ. As for me, I have a very low threshold because I want Dorico to justify each and every page I produce. I don’t want to have a page with squished systems on top because the fullness was almost reached… My settings are close to 40% of fullness causes justify to kick in, and 95% of fullness gets rid of staves justification, only systems. And then I make sure I have pages filled with music, using breaks, slightly modifying Note Spacing in Layout options or Space size (Layout options>Page setup). You need to play with those to get acquainted with it and realize how powerful and fast it is.
To answer your first sentence, having a fixed number of systems per page is not reasonable because there is so much that can change from system to system… Very high pitched notes or low pitched notes with many ledger lines, rehearsal marks, chord diagrams, tempo markings… It’s better to let Dorico work its magic and help it by changing some parameters according to the material.
You can set a fixed number of systems per frame, in Layout Options > Staves and Systems > Casting Off. But as @MarcLarcher, this is not desirable in most cases.
The number of systems per page is usually determined by Dorico according to things like your space size and minimum gaps; it calculates how many systems it can fit in the frame based on those settings.
Vertical justification is applied afterwards. Dorico puts onto the page the number of systems it thinks will fit, and then depending on how full the page is and what your justification settings are will space those systems out to fill the page.
Thanks for more insight into this. And as you say, we all have different preferences and I also have a publisher with a house style that dictates quit a lot of how the layout should look like. So I usually get a long list of small corrections every time I send them new pdf-files. The current problem is that I am one of the first to switch to Dorico (from Finale) so when they ask me to change anything or do things differently I very often have no idea how to do this in Dorico. And sadly they haven’t acquired the knowledge either (which I’m sure they will in due time).
Note spacing was also another thing they had slight complaints about so this time I changed the custom spacing ratio to 1.60 (the default was 1.41). This made the spacing a bit tighter but I’m not sure if this is the best way to do this?
Making that ratio larger actually spaces the notes farther apart, not closer. But depending on the music, it may allow Dorico to create systems which are more full. That is, you might go from 8 loosely spaced bars on the system to 7 more tightly spaced bars.
This works the same way as vertical justification, but horizontally. Dorico figures out how many bars will fit onto a system, and then it spreads them out to fill the system. Finale worked the same way, in this regard.
Ok! That is quite surprising! I tried this again but it seems that increasing the ratio above 1.41 increases the spacing of longer notes (half notes) but decreases the spacing of eight notes and shorter. In this piece (which is a fast piece) I do have a LOT of eight notes so this was maybe the reason why the note spacing got tighter.
What would you recommend that I change instead of this ratio if I want a more overall tightly spaced appearance? In Finale you had different spacing options you could choose from. Is there something similar in Dorico or do I have to manage this completely different?
No, that’s not true. As you play with that ratio in the Layout Options dialog, you can see in the graphic below how much space Dorico will allocate by default for each type of note (the little gray numbers above each notehead).
Back in the day, Finale worked with tables of spacing widths: explicit amounts of space applied to different kinds of notes. But at some point in the 2000s they introduced the idea of using a reference width and scaling factor, which is exactly how Dorico does it. Here’s Finale’s dialog, with units set to spaces:
In Finale, you can choose which note value is the ‘reference’ – in Dorico, it’s always the quarter note. The Reference width is Dorico’s “Default Space”; and the Scaling Factor is Dorico’s Spacing Ratio.
(Ninja’d!!)
If you use a Ratio/Factor of 2, then half notes use twice as much space as quarters. If you use a ration of 1, then every note has the same width. Values inbetween slide a scale between those two.
Essentially, the higher, then the greater difference between the sizes.
Thanks everyone for more insights into note spacing. I’m (slowly) beginning to find the right settings for everything.
In my eyes the default spacing for crotchet/quarter note looks better with something like 3 1/2 spaces. And the ratio in Finale seems to have been 1,618 by default? Maybe that is why I prefer that setting more?
May I ask what you experienced users prefer as your Note Spacing settings?
Thank you @charles_piano for sharing this thread. Super interesting. And really useful as well. And as @benwiggy explains in the thread you shared, you actually get both smaller and and bigger values in the note spacing when changing the ratio, depending on the note value (half notes compared to eight notes for example). See attached screenshot (I borrowed @benwiggy’s picture. Thanks!).
