You can actually route the different microphone positions to not just stereo, but into different submixes. You could do this routing inside VEPro and bring the ready surround mix into Dorico as separate channels (for example two front speakers and two back speakers) if Dorico supported that.
That doesnāt make it surround however - well maybe a fake surround at best. Sure you can put your strings in front and winds in back in quad and call it surround, but you wonāt get hall reverb bleed into the other channels unless you record with an AMBEO mic or equivalent.
1 Like
This is all much ado about nothing anyhow - go spend a bunch of time watching many movies and playing many games - especially VR - and youāll see surround is a minor effect. In movies itās just for whizzy SFX. Itās most important in VR games really. I have a 7.1 big screen theater, and a full VR studio and have spent much time studying this. Most of the time you donāt notice it and thatās the point - directors donāt want the stupid surround to detract from the story or the gameplay.
In practice we mainly use it for the convenience of final mix. The reality is most people have crap systems, and listen on their phones anyhow. But ATMOS allows you to do a āvirtualā kind of mix, and then output several formats which is a huge benefit. In the field we record stereo or ambeo sfx mainly do get a natural reverb which we mostly suppress, but have to make it easier to mix the fx.
Stereo is so much easier and better, surround is little used, but it is becoming more of a thing now that Apple made it standard.
2 Likes
Actually BBC symphony orchestra has recorded even this bleed to other section microphones, but I donāt think that is really necessary. But perhaps you misunderstand what I mean, I do not suggest to put different instruments to different speakers/locations (of course that could be done too), but simply separating the individual microphone signals for each instrument and routing those to the surround channels.
1 Like
No I know what you mean, and the bleed and instrument positioning were just for illustration. Regardless recording bleed still isnāt surround, if I put it in a game Iām working on now I guarantee I wonāt have a stem I can properly work with. Iāve been working with this for a long time, itās mainly spatial positioning.
The last point Iāll make is, did they record using a mic like this?
Or with a bunch of separate capsules spread all over the place? If the latter itās not surround because I know of no DSP that can work with that.
I donāt know why you want to limit the concept of āsurroundā to the one you use. Surround is any immersive technique producing āsound surrounding the listener for increased realismā.
There are several recording and mixing techniques to do it. Orchestral sample libraries manufactures have their technique of choice to do it. Itās nothing āfakeā ā as far as we agree that any sound reproduction technique is an illusion ā but conceived as surround sound right from the start.
At least in the case of VSL Synchron and Spitfire BBC Symphony Orchestra, the libraries are even conceived for Atmos sound, the next step from the legacy surround. They are recorded this way, not modeled on a stereo recording.
The recording techniques used by Spitfire and VSL, to continue the example, are derivatives of the classic āDeccaā ones. A main trio of omni microphone, placed over the conductor, gets both a holistic image of the orchestra, and the reverb around it.
An additional set of spaced microphones (that may be cardioid or omni) grab a wider image of the orchestra, and get more reverb from the room. VSL call these the āSurroundā mics. Spitfire has room for an additional set of Ambient mics, placed back in the hall. Other sets, placed higher, get the Atmos signals, which include more room sound.
This is an enveloping image of the orchestra. Mixing the signals gets the distance of the listener from the orchestra ā more Main mics, and you are placed at the conductorās position; more Room mics, and you are back in the hall.
The distribution of the signals between the speakers uses the real recording. Depending on how much of the Main (and even some of the Section) mics you send to the rear speakers, you are more or less into the orchestra. Surround panners are in charge of balancing signals in a reliable way. VSL even supplied a surround panner helping in āfakingā a stereo source in a ārealā surround environment.
It is common practice to also add artificial reverb, but this is a āsweeteningā technique, adding to the overall sound color and space perception. It is just that: an added tool to the base mix of the natural recording.
Mixing close mics may allow placing the instruments anywhere in the surround field, but this is a specialized use of the technique. The main use is to move the listener into the room, using the real sound of the room.
As I argued above, this is probably the most common way of listening orchestral music, since the old hi-fi corner in the homes have now been replaced by a multimedia station, with a webtv and its surround listening offering surround music from movies and classical orchestras transmitted via YouTube or their own web channel.
Paolo
Ulf, that is an ambitious life goal LOL.
What I sent is a scratch project that has had different VST swapped in and out. The BioTek, Halion, and second VEP had all been deleted at some point in the past. I meant to give you the simplest sample project possible to illustrate with two parts going to VEP and I donāt think it had a Halion instance visible when I saved it in Dorico. Do you want me to make a perfectly clean one that has only ever had VEP?
As far as the āunusedā toggle - sent you a screen shot.
While you canāt see all of them without scrolling, none of the āunusedā show visual meter activity, and pulling all of their faders down has no audible impact.
In case it matters, there are 32 outs in VEP by default instead of 16, and I see 16 outs for one Halion, and one HSSE. instance, even though I see only one Halion in the rack.
I wonder if we have at least 10 forum members who are willing to contribute $20 towards a VEP license for Ulf 
Or if Vienna will give him one, realizing Dorico users are probably right in the center of their target demographic and he is THE audio person here.
2 Likes
Because AFAIK thatās the way other professionals in the industry are also doing it.
The recording techniques used by Spitfire and VSL, to continue the example, are derivatives of the classic āDeccaā ones. A main trio of omni microphone, placed over the conductor, gets both a holistic image of the orchestra, and the reverb around it.
Thatās not surround, and certainly not ATMOS. I think youāre mixing āairā - which is a sense of space recorded into a stereo channel (no matter the number of mics used to capture it), and true surround. If you want to call that surround thatās fine but itās not how people who use surround mean the term.
At any rate music in a surround environment is out of band (I forget the exact term - too much in my head). Basically itās locked to listener position and not world influenced. Essentially stereo, no point in mixing surround for that and doesnāt make sense anyhow.
And now weāre testing Microsoft acoustics which uses wavelet Monte Carlo to give game world acoustics. Think sfx (gun shot) slap from actual world materials.
But itās not stereo. These libraries, exactly as surround recorded music (at least, so they dare to call it) are delivered as multi-channel. You are free to mix them down to stereo, or to mix the separate channels with a surround mixer (at least, so they dare to call it).
Paolo
Dan - Iām pretty sure youāre aware of how āairā is used like āwarmthā and āpresenceā in regard to the emphasis of certain frequencies ranges; and used to describe the characteristics of pre-amps, mics, EQ, etc. Think Iāll chalk up the āair is spaceā comment to the full brain you mentioned.
The approach you expressed to the music I get though - and its actually ironically I think the root of Christian Henson and Paoloās concern. Itās one valid way to think- especially with all that is going on.
To other composers or artists (and I think of Paolo as a great example) - or to those persons in the audience who came for an amazing musical experience as much as anything - being surrounded by the music is part of the experience and throwing some stereo tracks into Atmos isnāt ever going to have the magic of say an Alan Parsons crafted Quad mix. Call it fake if you want, but natural was never the point. It is about how it feels.
This way of thinking is just as valid IMO, and just as important in driving the best film experiences. I think that is want Paolo is asking to be recognized. But every supervisor / team makes their choice.
2 Likes
Hi @gdball , well, you have to aim high 
Yes, VEP has 32 outputs but Dorico pairs them to 16 stereo channels. And in the data I donāt see a HALion instance, they are both HSSE.
Have you really scrolled through the whole range of unused channels? With 2 VEP instances and 2 HSSE, there are more than 60 channels. You can scroll them by hovering with the mouse over the fader section and then spinning the mouse wheel.
If you still donāt see any metering on one of those unused channels, well, maybe thatās the time then to start a new project from scratch. I donāt know how your project could end up in this funny state anyway.
And in regards to a VEP license, see, most likely the Vienna guys would give me one for free, but itās just another monster that Iād have to install. BBCSO already eats up so much of my disk space and Iām glad that NotePerformer is so light weighted; And also for Kontakt I have only the very minimum factory content installed. I canāt keep up with all the stuff that people think I should have installed, itās simply too much.
2 Likes
Installing just the VEPro with no additional samples is actually very small, same size as note performer (around 1 GB). But it is very helpful for example with the BBC SO - you can load the heavy samples to VEPro and decouple from dorico. That way dorico projects will stay fast and responsive (and also take less space). At least for me it has been a big help!
2 Likes
@SampoKasurinen , right, but Iām not a composer, Iām an engineer and work differently with Dorico (and the whole environment) than you as a real user.
3 Likes
Pablo - multi channel does not equal surround.
And @gdball thanks for the comments, and the two of you - look I know exactly what youāre talking about, and Iām fully in support of it ironically. Iām a long time audiofool/phile, Iāve had horns, planers, and finally found truth in Stax electrostatics. The problem is youāre going about it the wrong way is what Iām telling you. In the industry surround is a different beast with different goals, and good musical reproduction can use that surround/binaural to achieve this (Stax have worked on this for years with their Diffuse field ED-1 correctors, very rare, and I have a collection of them!) But donāt mix apples and oranges when talking about it!
And further ironically, as the composer for a small game company Iām doing exactly this, which is why Iām nitpicking. Music is a major part of this next title weāre working on. The best way to achieve the best music is to keep the music two channel. The world sfx is surround, and thereās a tiny bit surround reverb (cinematic sounds) to āglueā it all together. Because each of these sound sources is coming from a different acoustic environment, weāre simultating real world computationally in the game world, the original SFX we recorded typically outside or in the studio (and there two we unusually record three channels - a boom mic and ORTF pair to capture natural āreverb glueā which we pull down), and the music (BBCSO) was recorded as bits and pieces on the other side of the world. Just add a little bit of surround glue makes it all work.
Anyhow, enough said letās not discuss it anymore! 
Just to inform the team that Iāve just set up my surround system at the studio, and need surround from Dorico. May I expect it for the end of the summer holidays?
Just wondering: isnāt multiple audio channel management included in the VST Audio Engine?
Paolo
1 Like
From Ulf back in the thread a bit:
1 Like
You can use DearVR Music to move VST instruments around in Dorico in a binaural space (similar to what VSL MIR3d is doing). It is simply using the stereo outputs but does require headphones for the full effect. Its fun to play with but I only tried with a few instruments. One can only imagine what it might sound like with a full orchestra. Iām not sure how it would compare in terms of efficiency or effectiveness with VSL MIR3D (I have it but havenāt tried it yet).
It sure would be exciting to use Dorico in surround with physical outputs that could be sent to different speakers. I really prefer my orchestra sounds through speakers.
1 Like
You could also send instruments to the top tier of Inspirata reverb and place them virtually in any number of very highly regarded halls. The realism is stunning.
Nice for personal listening and preview, but then you will not be able to work with a true surround setup in Vienna Ensemble, nor output a surround audio file.
I think this will have the same limits as MIR: it can only return stereo audio to Dorico.
Paolo
What about SPAT?
It has returns for everything you can think of, I believe. Iām trialing it now and am blown away.
1 Like