It is not my experience that the listed plugins constitute the most substantial part of Wavelab. I hardly use any of them, and would never have bought a software license for Wavelab for the standard plugins. The environment, the surgical tools (like the spectrum editing, analysis tools, post filter, sonnox plugins) and the authoring tools are what makes the price justified to me.
As have I. But this is business (Steinberg) - and I (as customer) do not expect special treatment.
It’s real simple - it’s on me if I want to move forward with any new app upgrade. If I like what I see (features, pricing, anything) I buy it. If something bugs me or doesn’t represent good value - I don’t.
But ranting on a forum about how a company does their business - that’s none of my business.
If they do throw me a bone once in while - I consider it a bonus.
Q: Do Wavelab Pro (full version) owners start ranting in the Cubase Forum (with titles like “Double Charging Wavelab Users”) about getting special pricing when a Cubase upgrade comes along? Or the Nuendo boards?
You actually believe that these old tired dinky plugins represent the true value of a major version upgrade like v9?
One can easily read all about the new features and design in Wavelab Pro 9 and easily see that their upgrade fee is going directly towards all the hard work that PG clearly put into the new version.
Nowhere in the v9 marketing material is there any mention of the plugins you list. That they are bundled with each version of WL has zero bearing on anything - they are included so a new user has something to work with if they have nothing else to use.
To me - they represent (almost) zero value when compared with bigger suites I use daily like iZotope, UA or Waves.
Trying to justify the repeated appearance of this tired group of ultra generic 10+ year old plugins as being some sort of primary reason to use WL or a “money grab” or greedy or - especially a barrier to upgrading is a bit daft.
Let’s give PG a little more credit than that
I criticise Steinberg for this and that - because generally I like their offerings a lot, rely on them daily and have 2x Cubase Pro, Nuendo, 2x Halion, Wavelab and so on … there is one area I never criticised them: pricing. For the quality and performance their products are modestly priced IMO.
+1. From what I am hearing about 9 already (I have not installed yet) - it’s already shaping up to be a fantastic purchase.
And I must say - I have had my moments with Steiny as well - but I think the 124CDN I paid today (upgrade) is an absolute bargain for something of this complexity and value.
Programs like Reaper and Presonus Studio One offer mastering capabilities within the DAW.
So the new feature of integrating wavelab into cubase got me interested.
But it’s to pricey imo. Over 1000€ vs. 370€ (Studio One) … no thanks.
I think the mastering features in Studio One are very basic. Something that might work for somebody that has to master a few albums per year at most, but not something I could work in everyday like I can with WaveLab.
I think WaveLab Pro 9 is an extremely fair price, and clearly the best option for professional mastering on OS X. Windows has a few more options but anything that rivals WaveLab on Windows is easily double the price.
I’ve always also looked at the cost/return value when purchasing any software or hardware for the studio. Wavelab for us paid for itself within a day, or it did when bought new. The upgrade price is not really worth a consideration, simply a no brainer based on what I’m seeing in terms of initial feedback. If the price is an issue then simply don’t buy it. But to complain its not worth it or that certain plugs are mirrored as an argument on pricing is somewhat missing the point. Its either worth it to you or it isn’t. I personally think its value at twice the price for all its capabilities plus the excellent support PG provides.
Please guys, you’re getting seriously OT here! Whether or not WaveLab is worth it’s asking price, or if PG is a good buy, is another discussion for another thread. This one deals with if it’s O.K. that Steinberg charges twice for the same software!.
Hi Svenne, You remarked in your OP re the lack of discount for Cubase Pro users like yourself and suggest its down to ‘greed’ and also state in your later post that discussing WL’s value is for another discussion/thread. How does one respond to your OP if discussing the why, in regard to its asking price/value/duplicated software is off the table? Your OP doesn’t appear to be asking a question, it reads as a statement. I’m politely responding to that statement.
Your last post below is framed as a question and what I’m assuming your OP intended to say. Please forgive me if I’m wrong. Its a good question.
and to that I respond; my view is that I personally have no problem with the replication of plugins as per the list you’ve posted. I’ve always seen them as freebies as have tended to use other 3rd party plugins. Its the other functionality I bought the software for plus the level of support provided. I own multiple licences for Cubase Pro and Nuendo and don’t feel cheated in any way. Wavelab gets a lot of use here with functionality that doesn’t exist in either Cubase or Nuendo. I hope that clears things up in term of where I’m coming from. Have a great day. If I’m still not getting it, no problem
In principle I agree that a discount would certainly go a long way toward the Steinberg appreciation index
The old truth is that demand dictates price. As long as people keep paying for WL at the charged price, nothing will change. If sales start dropping – watch the discounts, sales etc pop up…
To get specific about whether a plugin adds ??% to the final price and therefore identical plugins necessitates a 50% reduction is not correct.
The counter argument is that the Full Price = Program Functionality and the plugins are FREE.
The problem with this argument is: they don’t! There are at least two people, in this thread only, who has declared that they won’t buy WaveLab, as long as they are being double-charged! Steinberg would most likely sell them by the truckload (maybe a small exaggeration, but you get the drift), to Cubase Pro users if they addressed this problem.
There is definitely a demand, but not at the price of being double-charged. It’s rather simple really. How do Steinberg make the most money? By selling 1000 units at half price, or by selling 0 units at full price? Remember that those who will be eligible for the discount already has paid for a substantial part of WaveLab Pro.
You’re right, but the discount need to be substantial, since the duplicated plug-ins constitutes a substantial part of WaveLab. It’s up to Steinbergs marketing department to make this judgement. If they get it right, Steinberg will make make money. If they get it wrong, sales will not increase.
The elephant in the room here is that… If the plug-ins were free, they would all have been included with WaveLab Elements (and Cubase Elements and Artist). They aren’t, so they are clearly not free.
It is incredulous that you simply refuse to understand how meaningless these plugins are in the grand scheme of things. Wavelab’s true value and power has nothing to do with it’s supplied plugins. I think most of us would buy Wavelab even if it had no plugins included. I know I would.
More importantly - you are totally speculating on everything from potential sales to what you think is going on in Steinberg’s marketing department. Truth is - you have no idea how Steinberg works, how much cash flow they generate or anything else concrete.
C.Lyde hit it on the head. As long as PG continues to deliver - the gang will be there for him. Paying whatever is asked.
Me personally - I have paid at least 5 times for WL and feel nothing in the way of being “Quintuple” charged. It’s the cost of staying in the game and that’s it. I choose to stay in the game. 99.9% of us have no issue with this at all.
Reality bites (for you and that one “other” guy) but it is what it is.
Agreed. I think this thread has gotten pretty silly. WaveLab is not Cubase, Cubase is not WaveLab. If I were interested in buying Cubase, I wouldn’t expect a discount because it has some similar stock plugins and can also edit and record audio.
+1. Never has been and never will be.
Me either. When I purchased Nuendo a few years back (which was massively expensive compared to Cubase at the time) I did not even think about my WL usage or ownership let alone starting polls and threads attempting to convince others that I have been “wronged” by Steinberg.
It was my choice to like or not like. Buy or not buy.
You do get two “separate licenses” for all those plugins, so you could use them on two different machines simultaneously.
Whether the included plugins are the same or not doesn’t change the cost of building the program.
The cost of these applications is very low when you look at things in their historical context, especially if you are a user who uses them daily. Less then $10 a month if you buy every update for either Cubase or Wavelab. If an app feels too expensive to a customer, imo, that person doesn’t need it enough to justify spending the money.
Wavelab itself is very specialized. I think there are many, many Wavelab users who have no use for a sequencer.
Without having SB’s profit/loss spreadsheet in front of him, or at least their head accountant next to him, explaining how pricing is set, I don’t see how the OP’s observations can be taken as being credible.
And your “costing” analysis is bang on. Given PG’s full year of hard dev on v9 - an upgrade cost of 99 bucks seems like I am getting away with something that I should not be
How anyone could possible complain about that price point (for what WL offers each major cycle - especially this one) is truly beyond my comprehension.
@ Justin (and others)
I agree with you regarding Studio One. I was not suggesting that a Cubase+Wavelab Bundle should cost 379€. But I agree with the OP that there should be a discount. I stated that it costs more than 1000€; in fact it costs 1128€. And that is just way to much. I’m sorry but a program like Wavelab is not that impressive anymore in 2016.
And it’s not just that some plugins are the same as in Cubase. There are way more functionalities that are the same. Importing, exporting, sample rate conversion, fades , the list goes on and on and on. In 2016, in fact, I find a program like Wavelab, as standalone version, totally outdated. It could all be completely and perfectly integrated into Cubase incl. batch funtionalities, metering and things like ddp.
And saying that Wavelab brings in the costs quickly back in is only the truth for a vast, vast minority. Most people can’t make any money anymore, in fact the lose money making music.
Although i would welcome some discount for owing both programs, i disagree with this statement:they are totally different programs to the core