“Double” Cut Common Time (¢)

Hey there!
How can I type this kind of “Double” Cut Common Time inside Dorico (see the attached image)? Dorico, by default, places a 2/2 time signature instead of a 2/1 one, which is what I want.

Thanks!
Albert.
Captura de pantalla 2017-03-03 a les 23.51.55.png

I’m afraid Dorico can’t show a cut common time signature for it to mean 2/1; it can only mean 2/2. I’ve not come across the use of that sign to mean anything other than 2/2 before. What composer/publisher/historical period are you working on?

The image in the first post is from ClavierÜbung III by JS Bach, I think. Dorico should not only be able to do that but should also be able to do CC as in the Bach Fuge in Ab minor. I’m not sure where it means 4/4 + 4/4 or 4/2 but it’s 8 crotchets in a bar.

Yes, Michael, you’re right.

It’s also quite frequent for renaissance choral music by e.g. Palestrina or Byrd to have cut-common for 2/1. It would be brilliant if this could somehow be supported in due course.

I guess we could add an engraving option to show 2/1 using the cut common symbol at some point. I’ll make a note of it.

Here’s the Brahms CC:
Screen Shot 2017-03-04 at 23.21.24.jpg

C with a line through it has a more varied use in Renaissance music and its use in 4/2 is by no means unusual.

The work around for this in S----ius is to create the piece with a 4/2 time signature and then replace the 4/2 by C with a line, at the same time deselecting “Rewrite bars up to next time signature”. Does Dorico not have an equivalent?

David

No, Dorico doesn’t have a means of inserting a time signature without changing the subsequent bars. You’d actually have to do it in reverse, that is to say, add the cut common time signature, and then delete every other barline.

A work around I just found to write this in Dorico is the following:

1st: Set the time signature to Cut Common Time.
2nd: At measure 3, set the time signature to 4/2 (or 2/1), and hide it.
3rd: Delete the bar between measures 1 and 2.
4th: Here you have it! (see the attached image)

It works fine, but the first silences that appear are whole note silences, not double ones.

Hope it helps!
Albert.

I use ‘display signature as…’ in an alternative program all the time. It is actually quite useful to be able to change to say 4/4 but displayed as 3/4.

Yes, Cut C is used extensively in Baroque music for 4/2. In fact, the B minor mass uses it so frequently that it uses a “cut 2” signature to distinguish 2/2 (U+EC85 in Smufl!).

Finale can set one time sig and display another, which is a very useful thing.

I transcribe a lot of 18th century English and American Psalmody which often use retorted time signatures ie. reversed C or cut C time signatures. I haven’t found a way of doing this. Any ideas?
Is there any way of putting a double bar line at the end of a system with a start repeat bar at the beginning of the next? One seems to cancel out the other.
When can we expect 1st and 2nd time lines?

You can create a reversed time signature using Shift+X text: choose the ‘Music text’ character style at the top right of the popover, then copy and paste the relevant character from here.

At the moment you cannot, as you have found, show a double barline at the end of one system and a start repeat barline at the start of the next, but we intend to make this happen automatically in the relatively near future.

We expect first and second endings to be included in some basic form in the next update, though we have not yet started the implementation work on them.

Thanks for your reply, Daniel. I have found the reversed time signatures, but I can’t find a way to replace the usual time sig. with them. Is there a way of hiding the time signature without deleting a space? I like this facet of Dorico, but in this case it would be useful to have the space. I have tried making the first bar a 5/4 bar and hiding time sig and crochet rest, which worked with a new project but I couldn’t replicate it in an existing one.

I like working with Dorico and I’m sure various oddities will get ironed out eventually. I particularly like Bravura - I have used it with both Sibelius and Lilypond. It’s brought me full circle as I used Notaset when I started working in the early 70’s. Is there a competition for the oldest Dorico user?

One other strange thing - when I have Dorico open it stops my screen saver from working. Has anyone else found this?

I’m afraid you can’t currently hide the time signature and leave the space behind. It will be possible to adjust the rhythmic spacing in the next update, which will allow you to make the necessary space.

Dorico may well prevent your screensaver from kicking in because the audio engine keeps your computer in a high state of alert, so that it’s ready to start making noises the moment you click on anything in the music. We may well add an idle state that will kick in after a certain period of inactivity in the future, which would allow your computer to relax a bit if you’re not using Dorico for a while.

Thank you, Daniel. I await the next update with high expectations!

Here is an example from Schubert for double cut common time;
Schubert Impromptu Op. 90 No.3 Andante.png

As this old thread has been dredged up, it’s worth pointing out that if you use a time sig of 4/2 and click on “Common/Cut” in the Properties pane, you will get a Cut C symbol. Since Dorico 2, at least.

Schubert’s own MS of Op 90 No 3 is slightly amusing, given the edition that bobmusic attached.

He presumably had second (or third) thoughts, but there was only one clef left at the end :slight_smile: