Edit Window components issue

I noticed that using the Phase Invert in the Edit window on tracks that have amp sims (no modulation or time-based effects) doesn’t null the track with a duplicate, but if I use Pro-Q 3 to invert the phase it nulls perfectly.

I printed the track and created a new project to test it without plugins, but it didn’t occur then, until I repeated the initial test by inserting the dry track and the amp sim, and duplicating, it happened again. I tried amp sims from Softube, Neural DSP, and Bogren Digital with the same result.

Changing the buffer did nothing. I tried the same test in REAPER with the same VST3 plugins and the issue did not occur there.

This has been happening in Cubase 12 and 13 on an M1 MacBook Pro throughout multiple versions of macOS Ventura.

Is it possible this is occurring due to uncompensated latency in the Edit window components? This potentially makes the entire Edit window components unusable in certain situations.

EDIT: Just tested with Magneto, in a new project, no plugins, it did NOT null. Then I tried inverting the phase with Pro-Q 3 and this time it also did not null (tried Pro-Q 3 on each track, separately).

Once you’ve applied the amp sim, do you render that track to print the effect on the audio?

That’s what I did before testing in a blank project, yes (as I mentioned in the second paragraph, I printed the track). So, I’ve tried both cases.

When testing Magneto I even used a song from my music library.

The reason I’m asking is, I would not expect a plugin that simulates an analog circuit to sound 100% the same each time it plays. It actually strikes me as odd that it nulls in those other DAWs.

I understand your point as this is something I’ve considered in the past when using amp sims compared to real amps and I tested this a while back for those reasons alone (so unrelated to this issue) and found that amp sims actually null perfectly. They are nothing more than plugins and as such, follow a fixed algorithm instead of taking advantage of the full spectrum of the laws of physics.

I’m trying to recreate your findings. Is this an accurate step-by-step?

  1. Create an audio track and add some audio material
  2. Add Magneto II as an insert effect and crank up the Saturation to the max
  3. Duplicate the track
  4. In the Channel Settings of the duplicate track, enable Phase 180°

I used it as a Channel Strip component, not an inserts effect, since the issue is with the Edit Window components like reversing phase. The only difference is I cranked Magneto to hear the effect.

Ok. The reason these two track will not null is because the phase is inverted before the signal reaches the insert plugins. The Pre section in Cubase is always first in line.
If you place Pro-Q3 before Magneto II, you should get the same result—they will not null.


:EDIT:

Ok, but same difference. The Pre section is always first.

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Thanks, that explains a lot!

When you say “before Magneto II”, do you mean from left to right in the Edit window, since the Inserts slot comes before the Channel Strip?

If this is the case, this would mean that there is no way to invert the phase of the Channel Strip in Cubase without printing the audio first. Also, this means the phase invert function in Cubase is unusable for this kind of test.

I wrote that when I was under the impression you used Magneto II as an insert FX and not through the Channel Strip. You can swap the order of the Channel Strip and Insert FX Rack however.
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Correct. The phase invert is not there for testing purposes. Cubase’s signal flow mimics that of a large format analog mixer.

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I just tested with with the Channel Strip before the Inserts and this time it nulled (using Pro-Q 3 of course).

I’m just glad this means the Edit window isn’t misbehaving and I can use the built-in Channel Strip. Thanks a lot!

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