Editing ties

I may doing something incorrectly, but here is the situation: as can be seen in the attachment, I have a four B-b’s tied. When I enter them, the ties are an upward curve; as can be seen, I wish them to be downward. In Write mode, if I select the pitch, the ties are also selected; in the Properties panel, if I try and flip the tie, only the first one flips - I have to go into Engrave mode and select and flip each tie manually. So, two questions:

1.) Why have tie directions available for edit in both modes?
2.) Shouldn’t flipping one suggest that all would flip?

Perhaps there is a setting in the Engraving Options I missed?

Sorry, 3 questions…

Thanks in advance.

I expect some (perhaps many) engravers would want the most granular control possible over the curvature of successive ties. Perhaps an option such as you suggest could be incorporated into notation, layout, or engraving options, but I’m not sure but that it would cause as many problems as it would solve.

Does it depend, perhaps, on how you entered them? If you enter a single tie between the first B♭across to the final chord, how does that behave when you try and invert?

IOW, I suppose, could this be a function of the way in which Dorico applied the ties - perhaps as you extended the sequence of notes and/or as Dorico consequently calculated note values and so needed to assume some ties because, say, shorter note values resulted?

the key ‘U’ by itself unlinks/unties notes joined in such ways, BTW.

To expand a little on what Derrek’s said:
Tie direction can be influenced by various rules. For a single-section tie (between two notes) the options for flipping direction in Write mode are sufficient. For more complex cases, you need to go into Engrave mode (because in Write mode tied notes are seen as a single entity and it’s impossible to grab an individual tie segment).
If the options were removed from Write mode people would complain about having to switch modes for single ties
If the options were removed from Engrave mode it would be impossible to influence the directions of individual tie segments within a longer tie chain.

Thanks - this all makes sense: both the control over the individual, as well as those in Engrave mode. I entered the notes as discreet eighths - as you can see, each pitch is help while another one is “stacked” on top; I tried both ways of invoking the ties - as I went along, and also after all the pitches were entered, selected, and hit T - same result(s).

Another reason ties are adjustable in both modes is that Engraving Mode adjustments apply only to the active layout, and Write Mode adjustments apply to all layouts. So if you flip a tie in Write Mode, that tie should be flipped in all layouts (i.e., scores and parts), but if you flip it in Engraving Mode, it will be flipped only in the active layout.

+1 - Thanks for that additional info!

What I observe is that even in a single voice, Dorico seems to “like” the continuation ties (all ties after the first) to be arching down (as in a smile) vs. up (as in a frown). They seem to be a separate entity that won’t flip to the other direction, even though the first tie does, when changed in Write mode. The continuation ties also do not take on a changed appearance style set, as shown in this attachment. It seems a little bizarre.

I will admit that the ability to control is wonderful. At the same time, I’ve rarely seen ties that change their arc within a group - if they start out as an upward arc, they remain so for the duration. Perhaps there are scenarios where one wouldn’t want this, but I would think they would be the exception, rather than the norm.

Am I wrong in remembering that Sibelius can actually do that: that you can simply drag handles wherever you want?

Mark - I believe so; it was/is a way of faking “Ravel” ties, i.e., an arpeggiated chord that is tied to longer note values. Or am I misunderstanding you?

I think (haven’t used Sibelius in a while now) you are able to grab a curve and make it an S - or a straight line etc.

Over notes - but analogous to the way in which curves like the one in the handles jpeg can be stretched and moved around in the middle.

This video deals with it. But it’s getting some way from what you need :slight_smile:.