Exp. Maps | Please add Multi-VST + Trills


My intention for one staff:

  • Each voice is performed by a different VST patch, cause duh.
  • VWinds Clar/Doublereeds for main playback (on voice 1)
  • Infinite Woodwinds for trills & fast performances (also on voice 1)

Limit 1 | VSTs
Dorico won’t use two VST’s on one Staff FOR A SINGLE VOICE, so I bought Patchwork. It’s like VEP, but I threw away my licensers. Patchwork does the MIDI, but feels laggy for Oboe 1. No full template test yet.

Is mapping 2 VST’s for one voice coming to Dorico?

Limit 2 | Trill Generation Auto-Disables
After an hour, I finally remembered to map the half and whole step trills. The map triggers the midi channel change… but now it doesn’t -perform- the trill anymore.

vWinds, Infinite, Spitfire, and others have patches capable of “performing” trills. Infinite is especially great at performing trills of any interval… thus…

Limit 3 | Maps = half/whole only
Given that the expression map window has a “Trill” that isn’t interval specific, I’d like to just map the generated trill and not be limited to the 2 intervals. It’s worth saying that the two interval paradigm is the work-around (created by the sampling community).

Limit 4 | Generated Trills, no override in maps
Generated trills are great, but I’d like to have the speed values in the expression map editor override section. A contrabass clarinet and a piccolo aren’t the same. Some instruments have finger holes that require greater reach, or other physical limitations that really require different speed values for accurate playback.

Outside of this, and a couple humanize improvements I’ll suggest later, the performance of vwinds in Dorico is really solid. It doesn’t require as much MIDI input or “programming” as Infinite Woodwinds. It’s really impressive, and it shows that Dorico is extremely capable. I’m basically complaining that your Mt. Everest is 10 feet shorter than it should be. First world problems.

Are any of these things planned? In the works? Coming in the next update? :wink:

Thanks for the brilliant work!

Of course it can.

You can use multiple instruments on a single staff if you input the corresponding parts into different voices.

Then you simply need to enable the independent voice playback and assign individual VI patches to those voices in Play Mode. You can even dedicate a specific voice to unisons (a2, a3, etc). You can save that entire preset (endpoint) and use it in any playback template, but you might have to manually reconfirm voice assignments when starting brand new projects. Remember to enable voice colors so you don’t get lost.

To make MIDI less laggy, you should calibrate it first in Preferences - Play - MIDI input latency compensation, and use offsets in expression maps as the second step.

I think it’s also worthwhile to look into MIDI Trigger Regions for non-standard or not supported items (I use it to trigger the 16th repetitions, but it might be useful for many other things too, perhaps those trills).

VWinds are dealing marvellously well with Dorico generated trills, they respond beautifully to dynamic changes and you can have any interval, so I am curious as to why using infinite Woodwinds to perform these ?

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This isn’t what I mean.

Yes, I am using each voice for it’s own VST (thus my “duh” remark… who wouldn’t do this?) BUT, the trill technique is to be performed by a different library. Dorico can’t currently change VST’s for the same staff, for the same voice.

In StaffPad, I can swap Berlin/Spitfire/Cinesamples for Pizz, trill, etc. DAW users do this. Cinematic Studio Strings performs runs better than Spitfire, so I’m just saying Dorico would really benefit from adding this feature. Using Kontakt & UVI inside Patchwork makes the GUI laggy for a single instrument. It’s not really functional for an orchestral template.

Hopefully that’s more clear.


They work well for certain performances, but for some performances it sounds mechanical and choppy, where Infinite seems to get it right more consistently. It’s small enough footprint for mobile that I’d rather just load both. I own both libraries, so why not use the best one for each performance? :wink:

I’m also going to use one string library for espressivo, and another one otherwise.

It’s also worth saying that if the normal “trill” technique (not half or whole) in the expression map editor can’t be assigned any form of mapping parameters… why is it even in the list? I get that the list is complete. It’s just that if an item shows up, it should be programmable. And if I want to take advantage of Dorico’s generated trill feature, but also use an expression map, I can’t as of now.

I understood this was what you were getting at and this particular limitation is one of the few remaining reasons why some will still prefer to produce their mock-ups in a DAW. If the library is from the same vendor (in other words using the same VST) then you can often use channel change in the EM from within the same player-- this has come in useful on a few occasions – but I’ve come across of a number of situations where I need to use an articulation from a different vendor because the one I want simply doesn’t exist in the libraries I own from that vendor.

I can’t imagine it would be a trivial job to implement but if the developers could find a way through the EM to be able to switch VST’s, the benefits cannot be underestimated.

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I guess you could do this if you host everything inside VEPro. I don’t know anything about Patchwork to know if it offers the same ability.

yes, you’re right there – and I’ve done that myself. With VEP, it is possible to switch articulations alone by assigning a channel change to just that articulation. I was primarily thinking about those who for whatever reason are not using it and are looking for this sort of functionality within Dorico itself. And I must admit that with NPPE now available, I use VEP less than before although NPPE lacks the same level of flexibility.

I still can’t though.

Dorico ‘blocks’ the “trill” technique from being mapped though. It only allows tr-half and tr-whole. I assume because the ‘trill’ technique’s generated playback wasn’t coded to allow for a MIDI change before it triggers. Even if I select “Generated Trills Only” in the Playback Options, it doesn’t allow the technique to be mapped.

StaffPad’s tap-to-swap techniques feature lets you use the most convincing techniques for any given passage. It’s one of the best benefits of using the app. Look at how bloated DAW templates get. The point is that… in order to accomplish this… composers have frequently piled work arounds on top of work arounds + webs to complexity + insanity + sleepless nights of configuring said complexity… to accomplish what multiple VST’s per voice per staff would solve.

the benefits cannot be underestimated.

dko22 was 100% right on the money. But, you are right about a host being able to route MIDI. VEP, AudioGridder, Kushview, Patchwork… they all route MIDI, some over LAN, but are all largely giant workaround tools for a variety of problems. This one being one of the most bloating for composers.

Same. I use VEPro for unsupported ‘specialty’ libraries.

I do understand what you’re saying. One of my string libraries for example has samples trills up to M3 but I don’t have a clue how to notate it so those samples are triggered.

but I don’t have a clue how to notate it so those samples are triggered.

You could mark a multi-note tremolo + a custom playing technique that’s mapped to your key switch. I don’t know if Dorico would try to play the tremolo, but if it did…

Option B would be that you could create a trill (tr-M3) marking of your own (it can even look like a proper trill marking, very easy to do) + tie a custom playing technique to it + map the technique. I’ve successfully done that (in an earlier version of Dorico where it was necessary for trill playback).