in my expression map there are 2 groups with their own articulations, if articulations in group 1 are at the same time as articulations in group 2 , only group 1 articulations show in the sound slot lane. I see no way to expand or widen the sound slot lane to show the multiple articulations. If I remove the overlapping articulations, then it does show the articulations that were hidden from view,
There is only ever a single slot active at a time (unless it’s an addon-slot). You’ll need to define a slot that activates for the combination of both articulations.
If you share a screenshot of the expression map editor, or ideally a short project file, that’d make it easier to understand your setup a bit better.
sure Stefan, here is a screen shot
in this picture there are 2 places where more than 1 slot is active at the same time. This occurs when you are using groups. When using only 1 group, then of course the articulations are mutually exclusive and thus one at a time, but when using multiple groups, you then have the option for more than one articulation occurring at the same time. The sound slot lane does not take into account what happens with multiple groups.
in this next example using Halion Bass, group 1 articulation is triggering a mute, and group 2 articulation is telling it to only play on string 4 and again later on string 5, none of this shows in the slot lane.
Yes it does. The sound slots lane is showing the slot that is active based on the best match based on the entries provided. It appears to me like you have not defined a sound slot for “Muted Artificial Harmonic” along with the keyswitch that should be used to trigger a muted artificial harmonic, so it is failing back to matching only the articulation selected from the first group (which is mute). Same thing is happening in the second example, probably you have not defined a slot for what it should do if it is both muted and string 4, or both muted and string 5, so it is falling back on just the “mute”.
Obviously I can’t confirm this because you aren’t actually showing anywhere how the map itself is set up. But I do know this type of setup does work a completely predictable way so I think you just have your sound slots set up wrong in your map.
here is a picture of the expression map setup as well for more information. I have to question a response that says the slots are set up wrong, each slot has all the required information. Some slots came from Steinbergs own import key switches. Are you saying Steinberg set up their own slots incorrectly? I would re think that response, and the only reason I say that is because the actual key switches are performing correctly as expected, the strings are muted and played on string 5 at the same time, Its only the slot lane that doesnt show this information.
now maybe the slot lane is designed to only show information from one group at a time, again thats the reason for the original post in the first place. What is the slot lane supposed to show?
Thanks for sharing a screenshot which explains some of what you’ve said. In this case you’ve done the string 4 and 5 as add-on slots so that’s different. It still only shows the base slot in the sound slots lane, but if this works similarly to Dorico, the add-on slots will hopefully be shown in the tooltip if you mouse over the lane (although I haven’t checked this).
EDIT: No, the add-on is not currently getting shown in the tooltip when you mouseover. I hope this will be enhanced to do this like in Dorico. In Dorico it is like this where you just see the base slot, and don’t see the add-on until moving the mouse over to show the tooltip.
It wouldn’t work with the mute and artificial harmonics though, the way you have it set up. Artificial harmonics is not an add-on slot and you don’t have a slot defined that would be both Artificial Harmonics and Muted. It is only in the special case of add-on slots where you can layer like this without having to define a combined slot. So yes, in the lower example with the string 4 and mute and string 5 and mute, you will hear both those at the same time, but in the upper example with mute and artificial harmonics, you will only hear the mute (until the mute stops due to “Reset” and just artificialharmonics is left, in which case you will then hear the artificial harmonic for that note only).
Add-on slots are special. The only way you can have more than one slot active at the same time is if add-on slots are involved. With regular “base” slots and no add-on slots, there will only ever be one slot active at a time.
I expected a response saying it was because of add on slots, so in this example there are only sound slots, with out any add ons, and the lane continues to not reflect all slot activity.
In this case you won’t hear any effect of the sustainpick and 4 and 5 at all. You will only be hearing the Mute and Natural harmonics in this case. The 4 and 5 are now not add-ons and won’t do anything. If you deleted the entries in the group 2 and played it back, it would sound the same as it does with the entries there.
So the sound slots lane here is correct and it is showing what you will hear. The first two beats you will hear Mute alone (without 4), then natural harmonics alone for the last two beats in the first bar and the entire second bar and beat 1 of the third bar, and then just mute alone after that.
The sound slots are meant to reflect what you will hear. The add-ons part they don’t seem to currently reflect properly (and should be showing this in the tooltip at least and are not), but in this case they are reflecting what you will hear and are working correctly.
hi mducharme
you are correct in saying with the slots set to not add on, they no longer have an effect, this is new and I’m still trying to get my head around it. Plus, I’m still not clear why only slots and not , add on, slots are shown in the lane.
but your observation on how they work is correct..
So when you aren’t using add-on slots at all, the way you get combinations to work is by defining slots that accept those combinations.
For instance, make a new slot and for the articulations for that slot select both mute and 4, and tell it what keyswitches it should send in that case. The articulations column for that sound slot will include 2 items instead of just one, and will be activated in the case of both being requested simultaneously.
- Click the button to add a new slot
- hold down the ctrl key (or CMD on mac) to select more than one articulation at a time for that slot
- choose OK and you will get a combined slot for the combination you chose
And now you can give that combined slot a keyswitch.
Articulations to slots are many to one relationship, meaning you can have any number of articulations for just one slot of the map. Your map above is just one to one where each slot only has one articulation. That’s why the combinations aren’t doing anything.
ok, so I have to take back what I just said, because I re created the slots for String 4 and 5 again, not as add ons, just regular slots, assigned a proper output, moved them to group 2, and they did indeed control string 4 and 5 in any scenario, but still only the mute from group 1 is visible on the slot lane
That shouldn’t be happening. If it is happening, it is a bug. The highest group vertically (lowest numbered group) is supposed to win in the case where it can’t find a slot that matches the combination you are requesting.
Right - and I don’t think there actually is a bug because I would have found it already, but try deleting the string 4 lane entry and play it back again and see if it sounds the same. Don’t delete the sound slot itself or the articulation or anything, just the lane direction entry. It should sound the same after deleting the String 4 entry.
What might be confusing you is that it is possible for you to still be hearing the continued effect of the String 4 entry from before, but only if the sample player itself (in this case I assume Halion something) allows those keyswitches to “stack”. This would probably go away if you were to save and close and reopen the project as the active keyswitches in Halion should reset (unless halion has some kind of memory of active keyswitches that gets included in a save, which most other samplers do not have).
hi mducharme
in my case, I can trigger string 4 and it plays string 4, or I can write in string 5 and it plays string 5 or any combination of moving between string 4 and 5 and at the same time I am triggering the mute articulation from group 1, and of course I can change the mute to any other articulation in that group and it plays, the only thing that doesnt happen is the view on the slot lane reflecting more than 1 articulation at a time..
Hi, it should not be doing this. String 4 and 5 should not trigger anything and you should not hear any difference. The sound slots lane is correct, what you are hearing is wrong.
The only way that you should possibly be hearing the effect of String 4 or 5 with the mute lane in place is if you have either made other changes to the slot config since your last screenshot (unfortunately I can’t see the articulations column because you have it too narrow), or if they are not actually happening at the same time (ex. string 4 or string 5 even a slight hair before mute with techniques that can validly stack in Halion - in which case there would be the tinist sliver of a “string 4” or “string 5” entry in the sound slots lane, maybe really really really tiny where you would have to zoom in horizontally to see it, followed by the mute).
Either that or you’re deleting the mute entry and playing it back with just the string 4 or string 5 entry and readding that entry, and still hearing the effect of the string 4 or string 5 (and you might well still hear the effect of it in this case even though cubase is no longer triggering it).
Or you have found an actual bug where if you create a technique as an add on and delete it and create that technique again this time not as an add-on, it still makes it an addon even though it doesn’t show as one and you don’t want it to be one, which would be a bad bug.
hi mducharme
have you had time to experiment fully with the new expression maps in C15?, it appears to me that one of the major changes is how groups are used.
in the previous versions, there was an option for groups but it was very cryptic in my opinion,
also even in the manual there is reference to making sure you dont create conflicting articulations, meaning they can play at exactly the same time.
I dont know what to tell you in terms of you doubting my results, I’ve exhausted trying to explain it, and again the main reason for the post was to see if anyone has input on the slot lane showing more than one articulation at a time..
Yes, I have, and I understand exactly how they work. I’ve been working on maps with several hundred slots and 10 different groups. I’m working on a YouTube video to cover a deep dive of how to use the new map features such as groups, because most people misunderstand how to use them and people try to use them the wrong way. I’ve been teaching people on vi-control the proper way to set up maps with groups etc. I’m not some rando who doesn’t know what they’re doing who is just guessing, I know how they are supposed to work.
For regular slots (i.e. anything except add-on slots), only one slot is active at a time. No two regular slots can play simultaneously. The only time that more than one slot can be active at the same time is when add-on slots are involved.
When you make lane entries like above for muted and String 4, Cubase tries to find a single slot that matches both. But I don’t think you’ve made a single slot that matches both, instead you’ve made a slot that matches String 4 and one that matches muted. So it can’t find one that matches both. It will find one that matches string 4 and one that matches muted. But it can only activate one of these two, since only one can be activate at a time. So which one will win? It is supposed to be the highest group vertically (lowest numbered group).
ok mducharme
I went back again just to see, and the best I can come up with is yes every time I create the string 4 and 5 option as an add on slot, they always work, on the other hand, when I create the string 4 and 5 as a slot, they work till I restart Cubase and then they loose funtionality, which points to as you said, something is being left over but not a reliable workflow,
so I’m going to leave that one as you said, that the slots cant work at the same time
that still leaves me a little unclear as to the role of the add on slots in terms of the slot lane view, because the add ons appear like any other slot when there is not another slot happening at the same time, and I havent tested enough to see if I can create an add on that shows even when there is a slot happening
but as far as sound goes, Im pretty much in agreement with you at this point that under any scenario only one slot can play at a time. Add on slots being different
The purpose of add-on slots is for settings that are universal. An example is the Cinematic Studio Strings sample library for Kontakt, which a lot of composers use. It has a bunch of techniques in the interface, along with a switch that lets you turn a simulated mute on or off.
All of the same keyswitches are available regardless of whether the simulated mute is on or off. So the mute on/off is completely independent of the articulations.
Without add-on slots, you can support this in exactly the same way, but you’d have to create twice the number of slots to work with this.
Youd need to create, for instance:
- Sustain
- Staccato
- Spiccato
- Tremolo
- Harmonic
- etc. for the rest of the techniques
Each of those would be programmed to send two keyswitches, one of which would activate that articulation, and the other would turn off the mute if it was on (ex. if the previous technique had activated the mute).
And then you have to create all the same ones again but with a mute included:
- Con sord + Sustain
- Con sord + Staccato
- Con sord + Spiccato
- etc.
All of which would have two keyswitches that they trigger, one to activate the technique and one to turn the mute ON.
Then you would put most of the techniques in the first group and con sord in the second (or the other way around, it wouldn’t matter too much in this specific case) and you would have a single con sord. lane where you could choose whether con sord is active or not. So the experience is good for the end user, but the person making the map has to make twice the number of slots (for all techniques, and then all techniques again but this time with con sord. too).
Add-on slots are just intended to simplify the creation process of maps (and their ongoing maintenance) by making it less work to create the map with fewer slots rather than having a big effect on the end user experience.
When making a map for CSS, since con sord. is a global setting in CSS that affects all articulations and is available everywhere, it can be made an add-on slot. What that does is that means we don’t have to define all the combinations of all the techniques + con sord one by one, we only define con sord. once as an add-on and it gets added on top of the other techniques.
So in that case you would just set up the map with:
- Staccato
- Spiccato
- Tremolo
- Harmonic
- etc. for the rest of the techniques
And just one slot for con sord. as an add-on instead of doubling the total number of slots to allow for con sord., so it lets you get essentially the same map with less programming (fewer slots). Addons should really only be used for things that are truly global, becuase they are assumed to apply to all other slots in the map, save for any combinations that might be prohibited due to existing in the same group.
As far as the sound slots lane goes, the add-on probably be shown in the tooltip when mousing over the main slot, like it does in Dorico.
Add-on slots are only meant to work on top of a regular slot in addition to it. I have no idea what the behaviour is (or should be) if an add-on slot is active on its own with no regular slot.